Before Watchmen - discussion, speculation, rumours, and spoilers
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Dr.Strangefate
He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
To be fair, the idea of someone doing to Watchmen's outlook what Moore did to the Superhero outlook back in the day is actually pretty darn interesting.
Liefeld doing the art for such a project is significantly less interesting.
To be fair, the idea of someone doing to Watchmen's outlook what Moore did to the Superhero outlook back in the day is actually pretty darn interesting.
Liefeld doing the art for such a project is significantly less interesting.
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
Dr.Strangefate
He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
Like, Watchmen was all about taking the cynicism of the 1980s and the understanding that the world wasn't a bright and happy place, and applying that to Superheroes, which had always treated the world as a fundamentally "good" place... It led to a deconstruction of what it meant to be a Superhero altogether.
Now, in the 2010s, we're in a wholly different cultural mindset... In fact, if you look at the silver age that dawned in the 60s that Moore was commenting on, we are exactly as far away from Moore as he was from the beginning of the Silver Age. Deconstruction is kinda on the wayside... Despite the rigors of the world, the populous tends to view the future in a much different way, and being an American means something entirely different than it did 25 years ago.
If someone used the same criteria, using current ideology to comment and question the ideology behind Watchmen... Hell, not just Watchmen... Marvelman, V for Vendetta, Batman: Year One, The Dark Knight Returns... That would be amazing. To really mark the modern day as something wholly different than the last 25 years.
Morrison's tackled some of that, but I don't think he can be the man to do it. Everyone forgets that he came from the same british invasion of comics 25 years ago. He's as much a deconstructionist as Moore. Hell, even Moore's tried to undo the effects of Watchmen with Tom Strong, Promethea, and the whole ABC line of comics, but the old guard can't do this for the same reason that Stan Lee could not have written Watchmen.
I nominate Jonathan Hickman.
Like, Watchmen was all about taking the cynicism of the 1980s and the understanding that the world wasn't a bright and happy place, and applying that to Superheroes, which had always treated the world as a fundamentally "good" place... It led to a deconstruction of what it meant to be a Superhero altogether.
Now, in the 2010s, we're in a wholly different cultural mindset... In fact, if you look at the silver age that dawned in the 60s that Moore was commenting on, we are exactly as far away from Moore as he was from the beginning of the Silver Age. Deconstruction is kinda on the wayside... Despite the rigors of the world, the populous tends to view the future in a much different way, and being an American means something entirely different than it did 25 years ago.
If someone used the same criteria, using current ideology to comment and question the ideology behind Watchmen... Hell, not just Watchmen... Marvelman, V for Vendetta, Batman: Year One, The Dark Knight Returns... That would be amazing. To really mark the modern day as something wholly different than the last 25 years.
Morrison's tackled some of that, but I don't think he can be the man to do it. Everyone forgets that he came from the same british invasion of comics 25 years ago. He's as much a deconstructionist as Moore. Hell, even Moore's tried to undo the effects of Watchmen with Tom Strong, Promethea, and the whole ABC line of comics, but the old guard can't do this for the same reason that Stan Lee could not have written Watchmen.
I nominate Jonathan Hickman.
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Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
Hm! Well, that's interesting. I'd say that we've seen some of it all around the place. Given that post-Moore has so dominated the landscape for the last twenty years, anything that breaks from that philosophy is in some way going to be an argument against it. I'd add Joe Casey to the list of creators who propose a 21st century response to Watchmen.
Also, I nominate myself. Get to it, comic book publishers.
And, um, I'd suggest Stan Lee couldn't have written Watchmen because, well, he's not really a good enough writer.
Hm! Well, that's interesting. I'd say that we've seen some of it all around the place. Given that post-Moore has so dominated the landscape for the last twenty years, anything that breaks from that philosophy is in some way going to be an argument against it. I'd add Joe Casey to the list of creators who propose a 21st century response to Watchmen.
Also, I nominate myself. Get to it, comic book publishers.
And, um, I'd suggest Stan Lee couldn't have written Watchmen because, well, he's not really a good enough writer.
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DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
Is it weird that while reading this, I was imagining it in Abe Lincoln's voice?
Is it weird that while reading this, I was imagining it in Abe Lincoln's voice?
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
I kid, of course, about me being the man for the job.
But the more I think about it, the more interesting the idea sounds. I guess you could say that something like Astro City is sort of a response to Watchmen but it's really too retrospective, too much an experiment in nostalgia to really fit the bill. You need a story that fits into the "what if superheroes existed in the real world" motif to really work, and can't dwell too much on Silver Age nostalgia. I think you can look at the "real life superhero" subculture that's arisen over the last few years and see an interesting blueprint for what kind of trends this type of story might follow. The philosophy is basically the antithesis of the typical superhero trope. They're basically community activist and neighborhood watchmen who just like to wear funny costumes. They're at once indicative of the sort of pro-active grass roots socio-political activism that was so popularly trounced around during the Obama campaign, and their activities are highly informed by the use of social sharing online communities. I'm not quite sure where you'd go with it, but I think it would be an interesting little seed from which a post-Moore "real heroes" story might grow.
Only if you're sober.
I kid, of course, about me being the man for the job.
But the more I think about it, the more interesting the idea sounds. I guess you could say that something like Astro City is sort of a response to Watchmen but it's really too retrospective, too much an experiment in nostalgia to really fit the bill. You need a story that fits into the "what if superheroes existed in the real world" motif to really work, and can't dwell too much on Silver Age nostalgia. I think you can look at the "real life superhero" subculture that's arisen over the last few years and see an interesting blueprint for what kind of trends this type of story might follow. The philosophy is basically the antithesis of the typical superhero trope. They're basically community activist and neighborhood watchmen who just like to wear funny costumes. They're at once indicative of the sort of pro-active grass roots socio-political activism that was so popularly trounced around during the Obama campaign, and their activities are highly informed by the use of social sharing online communities. I'm not quite sure where you'd go with it, but I think it would be an interesting little seed from which a post-Moore "real heroes" story might grow.
DIrishB said:
Only if you're sober.
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Dr.Strangefate
He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
Joe Casey is also up there... There's definitely a new generation of writers rising, and unlike Ellis, Bendis, Millar, Johns, et all, these newcomers are bringing an entirely new voice with them. Millar's crowd in the late 90s/early 00s helped remind everyone that they had spent a decade focusing on the wrong half of Watchmen... That grim and gritty doesn't equal good... But a comic book story should have a point, it should say something about superheroes. It's too bad that they happened to show up in the middle of the Watchmen-Age, though, because that mode of storytelling is disappearing. I think it totally fits that Planetary ended this year, because it actually serves as a perfect final note on the post-Watchman era.
Jonathan Hickman's Nighty News and all his Marvel work, Matt Fraction's Iron Man, Joe Casey's Wildcats 3.0 (a few years back, but definitely a part of this), Ed Brubaker's brand of non Miller influenced Noir from Sleeper to Incognito, Steve Niles' Mystery Society, Bryan K. Vaughan's Y: The Last Man and Ex Machina, Robert Kirkman's reformation of Image Comics, and having read the first issue, I would absolutely include Nick Spencer's Morning Glories into this new wave of comics. Its a loose group, but you can just feel that there's a bond between these stories... The uncompromising willingness to show how bad things can get without losing a fundamental sense of optimism.
But there still hasn't been a defining moment... It feels a lot like the stuff that came out leading up to and moving around Crisis on Infinite Earths starting all the way back in the early 80s, when Alan Moore was still doing Marvelman for Warrior... We can see where the road is going, but there hasn't been a "Watchmen" out of the new wave... That singular definitive moment we'll be able to point to in another 25 years and say that it changed everything.
I bet its coming, though... like how the silver age began in 56 with Barry Allen, but it didn't become something wholly different from the golden age until '62 with Spider-Man. And how Miller's run on Daredevil, and Moore's work on Marvelman and 2000AD were going on in the early 80s, but DKR and Watchmen didn't hit until 86 and 87. We're in that middle bit. But the defining moment is coming. Our modern-day Watchmen.
Joe Casey is also up there... There's definitely a new generation of writers rising, and unlike Ellis, Bendis, Millar, Johns, et all, these newcomers are bringing an entirely new voice with them. Millar's crowd in the late 90s/early 00s helped remind everyone that they had spent a decade focusing on the wrong half of Watchmen... That grim and gritty doesn't equal good... But a comic book story should have a point, it should say something about superheroes. It's too bad that they happened to show up in the middle of the Watchmen-Age, though, because that mode of storytelling is disappearing. I think it totally fits that Planetary ended this year, because it actually serves as a perfect final note on the post-Watchman era.
Jonathan Hickman's Nighty News and all his Marvel work, Matt Fraction's Iron Man, Joe Casey's Wildcats 3.0 (a few years back, but definitely a part of this), Ed Brubaker's brand of non Miller influenced Noir from Sleeper to Incognito, Steve Niles' Mystery Society, Bryan K. Vaughan's Y: The Last Man and Ex Machina, Robert Kirkman's reformation of Image Comics, and having read the first issue, I would absolutely include Nick Spencer's Morning Glories into this new wave of comics. Its a loose group, but you can just feel that there's a bond between these stories... The uncompromising willingness to show how bad things can get without losing a fundamental sense of optimism.
But there still hasn't been a defining moment... It feels a lot like the stuff that came out leading up to and moving around Crisis on Infinite Earths starting all the way back in the early 80s, when Alan Moore was still doing Marvelman for Warrior... We can see where the road is going, but there hasn't been a "Watchmen" out of the new wave... That singular definitive moment we'll be able to point to in another 25 years and say that it changed everything.
I bet its coming, though... like how the silver age began in 56 with Barry Allen, but it didn't become something wholly different from the golden age until '62 with Spider-Man. And how Miller's run on Daredevil, and Moore's work on Marvelman and 2000AD were going on in the early 80s, but DKR and Watchmen didn't hit until 86 and 87. We're in that middle bit. But the defining moment is coming. Our modern-day Watchmen.
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
You sir, you win the internet, all of it.
I must input one thing. I think everyone from the fans to the creator feel it, the defining moment is coming that is. I think that sadly, Millar is trying to wedge himself into the role to be the creator of the modern day Watchmen. Look at Kick-Ass, Nemesis, Wanted, his Ultimates, heck even his run on The Authority.
I'm not sure if he can be the one to craft it, and I know for sure that I don't *want* him to.
You sir, you win the internet, all of it.
I must input one thing. I think everyone from the fans to the creator feel it, the defining moment is coming that is. I think that sadly, Millar is trying to wedge himself into the role to be the creator of the modern day Watchmen. Look at Kick-Ass, Nemesis, Wanted, his Ultimates, heck even his run on The Authority.
I'm not sure if he can be the one to craft it, and I know for sure that I don't *want* him to.
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Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
John Byrne is the worst.
Watchmen is pretty good.
DSF has some interesting thoughts.
</summary>
John Byrne is the worst.
Watchmen is pretty good.
DSF has some interesting thoughts.
</summary>
Dr.Strangefate
He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
Bingo. His work is still too reactionary... It's just the same thing that Ennis is doing with The Boys. It's still essentially trying to work off of Watchmen by claiming that this is how it would be if it happened in the real world today, but its too disconnected to have actually taken place in the contemporary real world.
I don't hate everything Millar does, but he is part of the old guard, not one of the new guard. His best work in the early 00's proved that he understood what made Watchmen great better than most of the prominent 90s writers (look at Ultimates for the best example), and that served an important purpose... But now he's done that over and over to death, and its lost its meaning.
Bingo. His work is still too reactionary... It's just the same thing that Ennis is doing with The Boys. It's still essentially trying to work off of Watchmen by claiming that this is how it would be if it happened in the real world today, but its too disconnected to have actually taken place in the contemporary real world.
I don't hate everything Millar does, but he is part of the old guard, not one of the new guard. His best work in the early 00's proved that he understood what made Watchmen great better than most of the prominent 90s writers (look at Ultimates for the best example), and that served an important purpose... But now he's done that over and over to death, and its lost its meaning.
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
I don't necessarily hate everything Millar does, it's just that he's becoming repetitive, I mean, the biggest example was Ultimates 2: Grand Theft America was exactly the same as The Authority: Transfer of Power.
I don't necessarily hate everything Millar does, it's just that he's becoming repetitive, I mean, the biggest example was Ultimates 2: Grand Theft America was exactly the same as The Authority: Transfer of Power.
Bass
Nexus of the World
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
Alan Moore may have destroyed superhero comics (he didn't), but all John Byrne can do is retroactively destroy his own work.
I know. Alan Moore is wonderfully versatile. His work on WATCHMEN is similar to his work on say, MIRACLEMAN and SWAMP THING, but it's nothing like his work on SUPERMAN or TOM STRONG or TOP 10. He's at least, a two-trick pony.
I thought Zack Snyder already did this.
He took a shocking, ground-breaking, poetic, grim, and down-to-earth conspiracy story about superheroes and turned it into an unsurprising, garishly loud, cacophony of operatic slow-motion action adventure conventions.
I didn't like GRAND THEFT AMERICA but I don't see how they're "exactly the same".
Sure, both stories involve the replacement of the superhero team with a team of doppelgangers, but the doppelganger is a grand old convention of the genre. Millar used that convention rather differently.
In THE AUTHORITY the doppelgangers surreptitiously kill and replace the originals and the public goes along with it. This allows the shadowy corporate conspiracies of the Earth, whom the Authority have been fighting, to reassert dominance over the planet.
In THE ULTIMATES, the doppelgangers are an invading army. They don't show up and secretly replace the team, they lead an invading army to conquer America.
The conventions are the same conventions, but they're used rather differently. If the Liberators had been HYDRA infiltrating SHIELD and replacing the Ultimates, you'd be right; it'd be exactly the same. But they weren't; the dynamics of the stories were different. There are similarities, but they're handled differently in a number of ways; GRAND THEFT AMERICA had nowhere near the level of humour as TRANSFER OF POWER, like Religimon. Instead it had the creeping paranoia in the traitor mystery.
That said, I think GRAND THEFT AMERICA was poo.
Alan Moore may have destroyed superhero comics (he didn't), but all John Byrne can do is retroactively destroy his own work.
I know. Alan Moore is wonderfully versatile. His work on WATCHMEN is similar to his work on say, MIRACLEMAN and SWAMP THING, but it's nothing like his work on SUPERMAN or TOM STRONG or TOP 10. He's at least, a two-trick pony.
I thought Zack Snyder already did this.
He took a shocking, ground-breaking, poetic, grim, and down-to-earth conspiracy story about superheroes and turned it into an unsurprising, garishly loud, cacophony of operatic slow-motion action adventure conventions.
I didn't like GRAND THEFT AMERICA but I don't see how they're "exactly the same".
Sure, both stories involve the replacement of the superhero team with a team of doppelgangers, but the doppelganger is a grand old convention of the genre. Millar used that convention rather differently.
In THE AUTHORITY the doppelgangers surreptitiously kill and replace the originals and the public goes along with it. This allows the shadowy corporate conspiracies of the Earth, whom the Authority have been fighting, to reassert dominance over the planet.
In THE ULTIMATES, the doppelgangers are an invading army. They don't show up and secretly replace the team, they lead an invading army to conquer America.
The conventions are the same conventions, but they're used rather differently. If the Liberators had been HYDRA infiltrating SHIELD and replacing the Ultimates, you'd be right; it'd be exactly the same. But they weren't; the dynamics of the stories were different. There are similarities, but they're handled differently in a number of ways; GRAND THEFT AMERICA had nowhere near the level of humour as TRANSFER OF POWER, like Religimon. Instead it had the creeping paranoia in the traitor mystery.
That said, I think GRAND THEFT AMERICA was poo.
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Dr.Strangefate
He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
Snyder wanted to bring this to present day sensibilities and adapt it in full to the film medium, but that misses the point of creating a modern day Watchmen equivalent. And the film is ultimately irrelevant to the comics medium. 10 years from now we'll all chuckle to ourselves when we realize that we had completely forgotten that they tried to do a Watchmen movie.
Snyder wanted to bring this to present day sensibilities and adapt it in full to the film medium, but that misses the point of creating a modern day Watchmen equivalent. And the film is ultimately irrelevant to the comics medium. 10 years from now we'll all chuckle to ourselves when we realize that we had completely forgotten that they tried to do a Watchmen movie.
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
"Ruin" is not the same as "deconstruct" or "redefine". He meant exactly what he said - he doesn't deserve credit for being less naive than he is.
^ This. I didn't say it because I haven't read enough of his work to be able to say that with any kind of confidence that it was really true, but what I have read...I agree completely.
It would be one thing if the work was all the same but was good, but it isn't. John Byrne sucks as a writer, an artist, and a human being.
Not sure if I agree it's necessary 100% of the time, but it definitely makes for better stories. And this is my biggest problem with Bendis - he NEVER seems to do it. There is no point to anything that man writes - save maybe Daredevil.
"Ruin" is not the same as "deconstruct" or "redefine". He meant exactly what he said - he doesn't deserve credit for being less naive than he is.
^ This. I didn't say it because I haven't read enough of his work to be able to say that with any kind of confidence that it was really true, but what I have read...I agree completely.
It would be one thing if the work was all the same but was good, but it isn't. John Byrne sucks as a writer, an artist, and a human being.
Not sure if I agree it's necessary 100% of the time, but it definitely makes for better stories. And this is my biggest problem with Bendis - he NEVER seems to do it. There is no point to anything that man writes - save maybe Daredevil.
J. Agamemnon
Well-Known Member
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
and Alias.
and Alias.
Bass
Nexus of the World
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
Bendis uses deus ex machina to worm his way out of endings all the time. Few of his stories have any damn point.
Bendis uses deus ex machina to worm his way out of endings all the time. Few of his stories have any damn point.
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
Re: Get ready for Watchmen 2!
I feel the same way about Geoff Johns, but I'm more inclined to like Johns' stuff.
I feel the same way about Geoff Johns, but I'm more inclined to like Johns' stuff.
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