ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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I already hate this movie.
Avengers movie discussion (news/etc.)
- Thread starter Hellsbuttmonkey
- Start date
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't go that far, but it's certainly not as promising as it once was. I hate that none of the actors playing the Avengers are A-listers other than RDj and Sam Jackson (who doesn't even really count as an Avenger). I certainly would have preferred bigger names for Cap and Thor.
I'm also just irritated that if this movie is successful, it will persuade Warner Bros. to make a Justice League movie (which I don't want to see).
ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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I was referring to the Overlord/Bass debate. I really like the cast.
DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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That's good because I am playing The Wasp.
You're going to look great in the black latex catsuit with the yellow landing strip.
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
I hope they give him pixie wings.
Planet-man
Well-Known Member
I was totally psyched for this until they recast Banner. Now, like The Expendables, and Iron Man 2, it just won't really be the same or anywhere near as good as it could've been. I love Ruffalo, but it just busts the whole point of this project wide open.
I'm also just totally numb to excitement for Captain America, and by association this, since they cast Evans. If I see some footage of CA and he's amazing, it might get me more excited for this. In the meantime, it's like a giant beast still lumbering along with a mortal wound. Meh.
I'm also just totally numb to excitement for Captain America, and by association this, since they cast Evans. If I see some footage of CA and he's amazing, it might get me more excited for this. In the meantime, it's like a giant beast still lumbering along with a mortal wound. Meh.
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
Nope.
If WB decide to make a Justice League movie, it (probably) means that they will retool all of their other franchises "in the run up" to their coveted team film, just like Marvel are doing. And unless there's some sort of hyper-intelligent brain trust directing all the different franchises, the movies leading up to the main event will probably be churned-out filler films like Iron Man 2 and The Incredible Hulk absolutely were. I want to be able to enjoy quality films based on franchises I love that are created out of a love for those specific characters and not just as a prologue to a different story.
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Bass
Nexus of the World
In THE DARK KNIGHT, Batman and Joker have no history. Continuity has almost nothing to do with the success of a villain. The real conflict and drama lies in the conflict generated by the villain, not in how well they know each other.
You're defining Cap by his "You think this letter on my head stands for France" line, and completely forgetting the tenderness he showed towards Bucky and Gail. Your forget how he was the only one who felt that what Pym did to Wasp was wrong and not just 'the way things are'. You forget that he's the one who stopped Hawkeye from killing Thor in the Passion Play. You're forgetting the moments where he feels totally alone and obselete. Your forget how much he loves his country.
Instead you're just focusing on one line that is a funny joke and deemed it a rude and offensive one.
What about Han Solo? He's a murdering, cowardly, selfish, smuggler who is only interested in his own safety and how much money he can have. Sure, at the end of the movie he does something heroic, but for the previous two hours, everyone loved him. He is completely unlikeable, completely empathetic, and starring in the quintessential sci-fi film.
What about Spider-Man? Spider-Man's origin story focuses on him being not only a loser geek, but a selfish, irresponsible fool who gets his uncle killed. But we empathize with him.
What about Iron Man? Or Booster Gold? Or Rorschach? Or anyone in WATCHMEN? Unlikeable all, yet very empathetic.
And Cap wasn't unlikeable anyway.
You're acting like there's a vast difference between the two, when there isn't. There's one difference; Ultimate Cap isn't apologetic. That's it.
Captain America, like every superhero, has been continually written for decades, and the majority of it is slush and interchangeable with any other superhero you care to mention. Your definitive ideas of what 616 Cap is don't even really exist. So when a good story involving the guy comes along, and polarises him effectively with the rest of the superhero cast, it's worth looking to that for inspiration. EARTH X is another great place to go to for Cap, and I'm sure there's a couple of 616 stories which have great Cap elements, but I just cannot be bothered to continue these discussions about miniscule differences in characters that barely exist and change depending on which writer's in charge.
There is no such thing as 616 Cap. There's Mark Millar Cap, and Alex Ross Cap, and Ed Brubaker Cap and on and on and on. Of the ones I've read, I loved EARTH X Cap and THE ULTIMATES Cap. Of THE AVENGERS stories I've read, I only truly enjoyed THE ULTIMATES, and THE ULTIMATES was quite clearly one of the best things to come out of Marvel in the last twenty years.
So yes, I would hope Joss Whedon would look at it for inspiration. And he will, because he wrote the foreword for the hardcover volume and expressed how it was brilliant.
Random
Didn't **** any of those *****es
You're also forgetting that Cap himself in the next issue when Fury brings up the line said "I don't know, it was just one of those stupid things you say in a fight". Cap dismisses the line as something stupid and thus you should not give it much weight
The Overlord
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Except the history and relationship Batman and Joker informed the story of the movie. The Dark Knight drew upon the library of different Batman vs. Joker sotries to create the plot, the same wealth of stories doesn't exist between Joker and Superman. Same deal with Doom and the avengers, the interesting rivalry he has with Reed Richards, any one else comes in a distant second place.
He loves his country the same way Rush Limbaugh or Sarah Palin does does, he loves his country, but seems hate half the people in it. Ultimate Cap loves a nation state, but not the true values of America. 616 Cap has fought the government several times when they conflicted with his values, Ultimate Cap mainly seems to obey the government with no questions asked.
Plus as Random noted he seemed brush off any of the tenderness he showed towards Gail and Bucky in a later issue, as a stupid mistake on his part.
It was funny, I'm not offended by it, I merely like to point out it shows a huge difference between the two, 616 Cap careful reflects on things and makes comments based on well reasoned study of the events in question, well Ultimate Cap just says ignorant non sense that we are supposed to laugh at.
Han Solo started that way, but he developed into a likable character, when he went back to fight the empire at the end of Star wars: A New Hope.
In contrast Millar made Ultimate Cap into a psychopath who uses children as human shields, it was not Loeb who did this, Millar did, so clearly the guy who created the character thinks he capable of being a monster.
You are confusing flawed characters with unlikable ones, there is a difference between a character who has flaws, but has redeeming qualities that makes them likable and a total A-Hole who has no likable qualities.
The difference is best illustrated by the ideas of a Jerk with a heart of gold and just a Jerk Ass:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Jerkass
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkWithAHeartOfGold
Almost all the characters you mentioned fit in the Jerk with a heart of gold, while Ultimate cap seems like just a Jerk ass.
I don't think you have made that case quite yet.
That's not it, you have been ignoring my main point, that Ultimate cap obeys without question and 616 Cap does not.
They represent two very different things, 616 Cap represents freedom, tolerance, equality, independent thinking. Ultimate cap represents unthinking obedience, service to the state, hegemony, social conformism, jingoism.
Ultimate Cap doesn't apologize because he never considers the possibility that what the government is doing can be wrong, 616 Cap is capable of such self reflection.
But how much of the 616 Cap stories have you read? Of course with a character that has existed for 60 years there are going to some bland and uninteresting stories, that doesn't negate the existence of the several good ones and there were good Cap stories before the last decade.
There have been tons of stories that are purely Captain America stories in the 616 universe, stories that show him questioning things, he has being at odds with the government at least 3 times and even questioned the origins of the super soldier serum itself, noting how it is similar to a drug.
Except the movie is called Avengers, not Ultimates and I have seen quite a few people around the net who like the Avengers and loathe the Ultimates. I myself have grown to like both in different ways, which why think instead of just basing the movie on Ultimates it should be a blend of the two concepts.
Why should fans of the 616 Avengers not get some bones thrown their way?
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Ultimate Cap is a man out of time. He has nowhere to go, nobody to fall back on, but the government. Bucky and Gail have their own lives, and he isn't really a part of them. He's falling back on his job as a soldier (which, as said MANY times by him, often does conflict with his moralities) because what the hell else can he do? And it's the whole man-out-of-time aspect that causes his dissonance with his nation. Cap is not Sarah Palin, or Rush Limbaugh; he shows no signs of racism, homophobia, religious extremism, etc, etc. He bemoans the loss of the values of his age, but that, again, is a lack of comfort. He seems to grow more or less accustomed to them, and eventually stops complaining.
And, by the way, when the government soldier thing does start to become a job that he is increasingly uncomfortable with? He left it. He told Fury he was outta there.
I couldn't even find the post where Random said this, but I definitely don't remember Cap saying anything like that at all, ever. He remains tender towards Bucky and Gail right up through to the point where he gets taken down by SHIELD for the "footage" from Hawkeye's house. If the line does exist, it's almost certainly a sinister spin being put on his words. I've read The Ultimates countless times, and never did I get the impression that he had anything but the greatest affection for the two.
I think it's important to focus on Cap in The Ultimates for this argument, because he's not the only one who underwent a certain degree of character assassination by Millar in UCA. But even with that in mind, that was a gamble by Cap. It's not like he threw children in front of him in lieu of his trademark shield, here; he bluffed. There's nothing saying that he wouldn't have protected the children if that had turned out to be a mistake.
REALLY? RORSCHACH isn't a Jerkass, but Ultimate Cap is? REALLY?
He's made the case just fine. There's a fundamentally different reading of the source work going on, here; it's almost like you'd prefer to hate Ultimate Cap than to admit that he isn't the total asshat that you're reading him as. Plenty of evidence towards him being more than the mindless goon you're making him out to be has been presented.
Right, except he doesn't.
That's a ridiculously loaded reading of Ultimate Cap. He DOESN'T conform. He never manages to. He tries, because seriously, what other option does he have? But he's not successful, and more importantly, he doesn't abandon his views and values just to fit in. Yeah, he's obedient, but as mentioned above it seems to be because it's the best way to get his bearings. One of the most important differences between Ultimate and 616 Cap is that the former didn't wake up in, like, the 60's, and see most of the social changes and upheaval of the second half of the 20th century. He woke up in the 21st century. The shock is enormous, and while working to adapt, he sticks with his old job until he gets his bearings. He becomes increasingly disillusioned, and eventually leaves.
YES HE DOES. He DOES consider the possibility. He doesn't like what the government is using the superhumans for, and he leaves their employ.
I agree. All the best Marvel movies have blended the two, and Whedon has said that it's a blend himself. I just don't agree with your ridiculously cynical view on Ultimate Cap.
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Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
I wish they'd make Captain America CGI.
Bass
Nexus of the World
Right, so the guys I saw TDK with, who had never read a Batman comic or seen a Batman tv show, when they saw TDK, they were all, "wow, thankfully the history is relevant". They didn't know the history, particularly with Two-Face. So for them, history had nothing to do with it.
This argument is absurd. What history did Bane have in KNIGHTFALL? None. But it doesn't matter. History can help, but it can be invented. Indiana Jones has a history with Belloq but it's within the story they tell, same for Syndrome and Mr Incredible. There's no reason why a 'history' couldn't be built in the story that involves them.
Continuity and history is never what makes these things work, it is always about the relationship and conflict. By your logic, the Prankster has a better relationship with Superman than Darkseid, because Prankster has 28 years more history.
Look, superheroes are cool, but they don't exist in a pocket world where basic storytelling principles no longer apply. You don't need backstory and previous published works to make a villain work, but rather a villain who generates real conflict. It doesn't matter how many times they've clashed.
Right. But when he was an unlikeable jerk everyone still loved him. So a protagonist being unlikeable doesn't stop you from loving them.
So Cap's patriotism, honor, loyalty, and capability for self-sacrifice don't count as a 'heart of gold'?
TVtropes is a fun site, but it is not particularly insightful. Many of the tropes listed duplicate one another or are discussions on hairpin differences.
In the first issue, Ultimate Cap disobeys orders and crashes a plane into the Nazi base to break it open. He later disobeys orders again, when he goes after Pym. He does it again when he confronts Thor about the security leak. And even in the New Ultimates, the moments you cite as awful, are him disobeying orders in search of the Red Skull.
You are clearly not remembering U-Cap correctly.
When did I ever suggest it had to be THE ULTIMATES with nothing from 616? You asked how much they should take from either one, and I gave three principles from THE ULTIMATES that they should keep. That's it.
That said, I did just get the KREE-SKRULL WAR saga in tpb today. I'll probably get some of the Brubaker stuff I haven't read.
Thanks. As I said, the only difference between the two is that U-Cap isn't apologetic. He's strong-willed and it makes sense that he's not hesitant about his decisions; he does what he thinks is best for everyone, and he does it uncompromisingly. It's that single element that made him, for me, so distinct from Superman as to really get into him.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Random
Didn't **** any of those *****es
I'm kinda of just glance over this debate has anyone mentioned Ultimate Nightmare yet? Where Ultimate Cap reflects on the bravery and sacrifice of the soviets during WWII and how deeply disturbed over their creation of monsters? What a dick.
Ultimate Houde
UC's Resident Genetic Recombinator
You don't understand Random, he never puts locks on his door, he's obviously a dick.
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
You're missing the point.
Ultimate Nightmare is clearly an indication that, not only is he a dick, he's a PINKO too!
ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
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He also killed Hawkeye's family.
What an *******.
What an *******.
