Ultimatum series discussion [spoilers]

[Bass]

Bass, you should give Madame Xanadu a go, its by Matt Wagner, and the art is terrific.

What's funny about this post, is I can envision Bass saying this. All those Italics, he's waving his hands around, making a point, the sharp stops there, he's giving you a look.

And yes, it's an intelligent one.

Bass is very charismatic, on the flip side, he supposedly can't get women.

I highly doubt that.

I will give Xanadu a go once I've worked through the billions of comics I've not yet read.

Also, if I WERE saying thing, there would be lots of swearing. Stupid filter.

And I can't get women. Stupid gender.

Well I think it's a common symptom of fandom.

People like to believe that the characters belong to them and not the companies, and then terrible stories are a direct insult to them. This isn't to say that **** like Ultimatum isn't insulting, because it certainly is, but as Bass pointed out, demanding better stories just shows them that you're still paying attention and they can keep stringing you along. It's voting with your dollar. I love plenty of Marvel and DC characters but if the comic is crap then why the hell should I be reading it?

Though I think the Ultimate Universe really hits people here because there was so much potential there. (The first volume of the Ultimates really was excellent. Thinking about it today in relation to the Miracleman reference I made, I really think it, The Authority, and some other comics from the beginning of the decade were like 'reconstructionist' takes on the superhero genre in contrast to Moore's deconstructions. Superheros placed in a real world context, but not to condemn them as silly or ultimately a negative thing, but to paint a more ambiguous and maybe positive picture of the 'superhuman'. But this is a bit off-topic.)

I like the reconstructionist thing. I think you're right.

Also, the "why the hell should I be reading it?" The way I see it, there are more comics than I can ever read in my lifetime. Therefore, I cannot afford to read comics I know are going to be rubbish.

I'm not picturing it as a petition, but as say a movement, to try and get people on this bandwagon of not accepting stuff like this, the post you just wrote is brilliant, image a site that featured alternatives like that as a focal point? Rather than just a comment in a forum only about a hundred people may read.
Well that would be a part of the site educating people on the idea of not paying for crap


That's definitely why I'm so ticked off, I mean I haven't even bought an Ultimate comic in like a year or two. But I'm still so thoroughly pissed off, not only because I bought an issue on a whim and fell in love with the line, but that there was so much endless potential for just absolutely great stories. It could have easily gone on for another decade or two of absolutely fantastic storytelling. So I'm very pissed off and just want Marvel to know of my intense dissatisfaction, and somehow writing an easily deletable e-mail just doesn't seem worth it. But if there a way I can just start a snowball down the hill then I may consider it. I never said this idea would work, or that it would be effective. I just feel something needs to be done.

I don't care if Marvel knows my dissatisfaction. It implies that, somehow, I need them to do better. I don't. They need me. They need you. And everyone else. But comic fans act like we need them. We pay for the garbage we get, and then wonder why it's garbage. We shouldn't have to beg Marvel for good stories. They should have to beg us for our time, money, and attention.

You guys are wasting time even bothering to talk about this. Bass is right; don't bother talking about Ultimatum or any bad comics - just go read ones you like.

Indeed. I am right. I am always right. Even when I'm wrong.

 

[The Overlord]

Now Bass I think you are being a little unfair to Marvel and DC, saying they should collapse, that's a bit harsh IMO.

I think they make good stuff and they make crap, most of the stuff written by Brubaker is still great for example, like Captain America. Its just Ultimatum was such crap that it makes whole industry seem bad, but if ultimate Avengers and UsM vol. 2 were well reviewed I would consider getting them somehow.

I personally would just avoid the bad stuff Ultimatum, I did, I just leafed through some of the issues at a friends house and I would pick up the good stuff, like Captain America or Daredevil.

Anyway personally I read a lot of TPDs by getting them library, now there's a free and legal way to read comics and if you don't like the comic you got you can just return it. I got 52 from the library and I liked it and I saw Linkara's video review of countdown, thought was funny, but then I knew enough not to get Countdown from the library.

But really there is no point in trying to "save" the comic industry, the comic book format is rather dated and print media itself is dying (newspapers that have existed for over a century are in danger of closing). The character concepts are more important comic book format itself and the characters will survive in cartoons, video games and movies.

On another note I heard Linkara may review Ultimates Vol. 3 some time in the future.

 

[Bass]

Now Bass I think you are being a little unfair to Marvel and DC, saying they should collapse, that's a bit harsh IMO.

I think they make good stuff and they make crap, most of the stuff written by Brubaker is still great for example, like Captain America. Its just Ultimatum was such crap that it makes whole industry seem bad, but if ultimate Avengers and UsM vol. 2 were well reviewed I would consider getting them somehow.

I personally would just avoid the bad stuff Ultimatum, I did, I just leafed through some of the issues at a friends house and I would pick up the good stuff, like Captain America or Daredevil.

I dunno. I think if Marvel and DC were on the bottom rung of the comics industry, it might make 'em actually work really hard.

But you're probably right.

But really there is no point in trying to "save" the comic industry, the comic book format is rather dated and print media itself is dying (newspapers that have existed for over a century are in danger of closing). The character concepts are more important comic book format itself and the characters will survive in cartoons, video games and movies.

Newspapers aren't dying because print media is dying. Print media is fine. Newspapers are dying because the internet and television can deliver information much faster and with greater interactivity than newspaper.

Just as newspapers made word of mouth obsolete, the internet and 24-hour news is getting rid of the newspaper. By the time you pick up a newspaper, you know everything in it. That's why it's dying. Not because it's printed on paper.

 

[Jaggyd]

I will give Xanadu a go once I've worked through the billions of comics I've not yet read.

Also, if I WERE saying thing, there would be lots of swearing. Stupid filter.

And I can't get women. Stupid gender.



I like the reconstructionist thing. I think you're right.

Also, the "why the hell should I be reading it?" The way I see it, there are more comics than I can ever read in my lifetime. Therefore, I cannot afford to read comics I know are going to be rubbish.



I don't care if Marvel knows my dissatisfaction. It implies that, somehow, I need them to do better. I don't. They need me. They need you. And everyone else. But comic fans act like we need them. We pay for the garbage we get, and then wonder why it's garbage. We shouldn't have to beg Marvel for good stories. They should have to beg us for our time, money, and attention.



Indeed. I am right. I am always right. Even when I'm wrong.

Yeah, but this time you are so completely right, it's not even funny.

 

[The Overlord]

I dunno. I think if Marvel and DC were on the bottom rung of the comics industry, it might make 'em actually work really hard.

But you're probably right.

But see Marvel and DC are not some collective, they aren't the Borg, they are of bunch individual writers, some good and bad and that's always going t be the case. There is always going to be good and bad output from them, you never going to get an output that is all quality or all crap, its always going to be hit and miss and the quality of comics is certainly better now then it was in the early 90s.


Look at this way, most movie companies make quality and crap at the same time. In the 90s WB made the Shawshank Redemption, as well Batman and Robin. Just because Batman and Robin sucked, doesn't mean I should avoid the Shawshank Redemption, just because both movies were made by the same company?

Newspapers aren't dying because print media is dying. Print media is fine. Newspapers are dying because the internet and television can deliver information much faster and with greater interactivity than newspaper.

Just as newspapers made word of mouth obsolete, the internet and 24-hour news is getting rid of the newspaper. By the time you pick up a newspaper, you know everything in it. That's why it's dying. Not because it's printed on paper.

I should have mentioned books as the exception to that, but Newspapers and mags are going out of business because of the net.

But really I think comic book companies will make more money from cartoons, TV shows, video games, movies and other merchandise then the comics themselves, printing the comics is a good way to ensure the trademark rights remain though.

 

[Willverine]

My opinion of this whole Ultimatum mess has actually changed since the first issue.

I think it sucks a lot worse now, and I think it sucks a lot worse in retrospect. That concentrates the power of the suck. Ultimatum is like a ink-and-paper vaccuum that grabs everything within it's reach and turns it into more suck, like a giant black hole of suck. If you own any of these comics, you should keep them as far away from other comics as possible, or one day you might pick up your favorite issue of Preacher or Ultimates v1 or 2 and find that it now sucks, too.

Seriously, I'm having a hard time understanding why the PTB at Marvel let Loeb take a big, brown duke all over the Ultimate Universe. It wasn't perfect before, but now... *gag*...

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Worst of the worst...

...the only way Carol Danvers' breasts make sense is if she's later revealed to be Half-Kree/Half -Beach Ball.

BWAHAHAHA!

 

[Bass]

I can't believe Loeb still writes for a living.

 

[Grocer Man]

I can't believe Loeb still writes for a living.

Me too.

However, I like how at the end of every Hulk issue there's a Mini Marvels thing spoofing it written by his daughter.

 

[The Overlord]

From the same person who reviewed Ultimates Vol. 3 last year, here is a review of the first two issues of Ultimatum http://at4w.blip.tv/file/5150061/