Ultimates, Ultimate War & Ultimate continuity

[ourchair]

While I see your point, this only proves mine about Millar only doing things to do things, which shouldn't be done, especially in something like the Ultimates, where characters have been picked out of other titles and put into this one. Millar alters characters to fit his ideas and some times that comes off as odd...

Are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, OC?

I see it more as a flaw, but not necessarily such a big crime. I haven't really read a lot of Millar's works, but it seems pretty evident within the Ultimate Universe context that Millar doesn't seem to really think some of his ideas through, especially in the earlier Ultimate stories. Incidentally, Millar also admits to not having read X-Men comics as research or preliminary basis for the Ultimate incarnations for the characters

He throws around references to the Fantastic Four, his earlier issues of Ultimate X-Men have characters speak in almost identical voices, and he doesn't really gel the ideas. When a character or concept is introduced for the first time, it's guaranteed to be a work in progress, a beta-prototype until he finally decides time to show his readers what he REALLY wants to do with the character.

 

[Goodwill]

I see it more as a flaw, but not necessarily such a big crime. I haven't really read a lot of Millar's works, but it seems pretty evident within the Ultimate Universe context that Millar doesn't seem to really think some of his ideas through, especially in the earlier Ultimate stories. Incidentally, Millar also admits to not having read X-Men comics as research or preliminary basis for the Ultimate incarnations for the characters

He throws around references to the Fantastic Four, his earlier issues of Ultimate X-Men have characters speak in almost identical voices, and he doesn't really gel the ideas. When a character or concept is introduced for the first time, it's guaranteed to be a work in progress, a beta-prototype until he finally decides time to show his readers what he REALLY wants to do with the character.

Which is complete BS because the characters weren't that far off from their 616 counterparts... I think that Millar does have a tendency to leave things go regardless of what's already there, which is a huge flaw, so we'll have to see where he takes the FF... You never know, he could end up making Thing gay.

 

[ourchair]

Which is complete BS because the characters weren't that far off from their 616 counterparts... I think that Millar does have a tendency to leave things go regardless of what's already there, which is a huge flaw, so we'll have to see where he takes the FF... You never know, he could end up making Thing gay.

Well, true, I wouldn't put it past Millar to be lying through his teeth when he said that. But no offense to X-Fans, but the characters are often so one note that any slight deviation is a big one.

All the female X-Men are varying degrees of bad ***, whereas their prior incarnations had one note performances (mostly made "unique" through Claremont style ebonics): Storm did her high strung godess act, Jean Grey was the stereotypical desirable female character and Rogue spoke in her Southernisms.

If anything, I suspect Millar was given immense amount of coaching and influence from people like Macchio and Jemas who had at least some degree of foreknowledge on the characters. Then Millar went and wrote them all with the same dialogue tics, and notably all his women have the "I'm tougher than I look" schtick. (The same could be said of Wasp)

 

[Goodwill]

Well, there are so many, you see. The titles are not about the individuals or even the team but the predjustice that's in the world. I think that's what Stan Lee wanted to get out of the X-Men. While that's a novel idea, that's not what it is today, sadly.

What I think Millar did was assume too much in the readers when he wrote his characters. He almsot wanted us to put these Ultimate X-Men against their repsective 616 characters, which I didn't like. Whether it was a side comment here or a schpeele from Magneto or a villain there, I thought that this was spitting image of what a writer who wants to relate back to safe waters would do. In this case, Millar looked back to 616.

He did not do this, however, in the Ultimates, which is great...

 

[Caduceus]

Well, there are so many, you see. The titles are not about the individuals or even the team but the predjustice that's in the world. I think that's what Stan Lee wanted to get out of the X-Men. While that's a novel idea, that's not what it is today, sadly.

This is true, particularly in Ultimate X-men. Where have we seen examples of anti-mutant prejudice? Bottle thrown at Bobby in "The Tomorrow People".
The treatment of mutants at the Weapon X program. The reaction to Angel's appearance (which was a little more complicated). Thats pretty much it. Oh, an Jean-Paul's reaction to finding out he was a mutant. Can you think of anything else? There's not really a lot of prejudice for nearly 60 issues.

What I think Millar did was assume too much in the readers when he wrote his characters. He almsot wanted us to put these Ultimate X-Men against their repsective 616 characters, which I didn't like. Whether it was a side comment here or a schpeele from Magneto or a villain there, I thought that this was spitting image of what a writer who wants to relate back to safe waters would do. In this case, Millar looked back to 616.

I'd phrase that as "Millar assumed too little of his readers". He started out with very similar characters to their 616 versions and that wasn't what the Ultimate universe was about. This has been remedied to a significant degree but it does still remain. Unfortunately the uber-women thing has carried over and still remains to some degree certainly with Jean and also until recently, very heavily with Storm.

He did not do this, however, in the Ultimates, which is great...

This is ture. His developement of a number of characters is different to 616. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are the perfect examples. He also completely altered their personalities and attitudes after their appearance in the "Return to Weapon X" arc of Ultimate X-men, as Ourchair (I think) mentioned.

schpeele from Magneto

I think the word your looking for is "spiel" Goody.

 

[Goodwill]

I think you're spot on, except the part where you said that Millar expected too little of his readers'. I really think that the comments that the characters made were aimed towards the 616 readers' who were looking for some reminiscence in the title that was revered for the most part. I think that Millar added these things in and didn't dwell on them because he needed to focus on his own plots, which, while that's a good idea, isn't at the same time because we're just being given the sense that these characters are no different than the ones in a different title. I mean, one character would mention something about another's ethnicity or background and it would parallel the 616 universe in terms of characterization or what really happened. That's my two bits on that.

 

[Caduceus]

I think you're spot on, except the part where you said that Millar expected too little of his readers'. I really think that the comments that the characters made were aimed towards the 616 readers' who were looking for some reminiscence in the title that was revered for the most part. I think that Millar added these things in and didn't dwell on them because he needed to focus on his own plots, which, while that's a good idea, isn't at the same time because we're just being given the sense that these characters are no different than the ones in a different title. I mean, one character would mention something about another's ethnicity or background and it would parallel the 616 universe in terms of characterization or what really happened. That's my two bits on that.

Except if you look at it closely, you'll see that for all the parallels, there were a good many differences. Colossus has had NO connection with the Russian Mafia, Wolverine hasn't actually been a member of the Brotherhood, Jean started a relationship with Wolverine (even though that died, it still happened and I'm really glad its out of the way so that all the nauseating terrible sexual tension between the two of them is over. I much prefer her threatening him). Jean turned a bit more similar as his run progressed in my opinion.

 

[Goodwill]

All right, well, I see where you get that now... I just thought he was using 616 as too much of a cruch for a while.

 

[ourchair]

I think the word your looking for is "spiel" Goody.

This is... "ture". Heheheh.

This is true, particularly in Ultimate X-men. Where have we seen examples of anti-mutant prejudice? Bottle thrown at Bobby in "The Tomorrow People".
The treatment of mutants at the Weapon X program. The reaction to Angel's appearance (which was a little more complicated). Thats pretty much it. Oh, an Jean-Paul's reaction to finding out he was a mutant. Can you think of anything else? There's not really a lot of prejudice for nearly 60 issues.

Actually, I find this statement true for a lot of X-Men comics in general. Of course, they've managed to cover enough prejudice to beat out Ultimate X-Men's "social relevance" but that's a matter of having all this with forty years of history.

If anything, both Millar and Bendis are more concerned with the political push and pull that comes with mutant vs. humans Cold War than they are at addressing what human and mutant relations are on a ground level. It's pretty difficult to balance their writing in Ultimate X-Men because the two contexts they can write from require more scrutiny than is necessary in a "power vs. responsibility" study that say, a Spider-Man book would be inclined to address.

The writers of Ultimate X-Men can either look at mutants as "paranormally gifted humans" whose mere presence affects the way government has to look at their civil rights policies. OR they can see mutants as an "unknown new race" in exoticist terms, one that is alien and foreign to the human populace and therefore conflicted with both prejudice and curiosity, revulsion and attraction. And quite coincidentally, most UXM writers have focused on the former.