Ultimate X (Loeb/Adams)

[Captain Canuck]

This is my all time favorite comic book.

All-time favourite? There is nothing you like better? Nothing?

I think I would have been less surprised if you said this about Ultimatum. As much as I disliked Ultimatum, it at least stands out in my memory. I actually didn't dislike Ultimate X, but i found that it was ultimately pretty forgettable.

 

[ProjectX2]

I've never read Ultimate X but this thread is pretty funny.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I've never read Ultimate X but this thread is pretty funny.

It's true, I just wasted 45 min reading through it again. I have no regrets.

 

[DIrishB]

Ultimate X was ok. It wasn't spectacular, but it definitely stood out as one of the better Ultimate titles during The Dark Times of the Ultimate Universe (ie, almost everything released with the Ultimate title after 2007). Of course The Dark Times are still happening to some degree, as Cataclysm - Ultimate X-Men #1-3 showed.

 

[themightygwynne]

Yeah on the inside cover they had all the comics bring published at this time which we ultimate avengers, which was silly and new ultimates which was stupid.

I think were all much more forgiving of bendis than we are loeb and he's had his hand in some of the stinkers.

Still in the ultimate x front, it's a shame none of those characters ever really get developed, apart from jean who develops into a crazy dictator for no apparent reason.

 

[wyokid]

I gotta disagree, outside of Ultimate Avengers (which was just awful) that had to have been my favorite time period in the Ultimate universe. Ultimate X was incredibly emotional and exciting, Ultimate Armor Wars is fantastic and probably my favorite Iron Man story, Ultimate Captain America was so badass and is my favorite Jason Aaron comic, Ultimate Doomsday was a really good mystery and finally paid off all those weird things about Ultimate Fantastic Four, New Ultimates is my favorite Ultimates story and is just really good, Ultimate Thor was pretty good, and then Ultimate Spider-Man was in it's silver age and was a lot of fun.

 

[Drunken Pickle]

Doomsday was far from a good mystery. It was so apparent who the antagonist was based on the cover of the first issue (or lack of the character being on the cover to be more accurate). Not to mention there was all the horrible characterizations, terrible pacing, inconsistencies, and the misplaced word bubbles.

 

[wyokid]

Doomsday was far from a good mystery. It was so apparent who the antagonist was based on the cover of the first issue (or lack of the character being on the cover to be more accurate). Not to mention there was all the horrible characterizations, terrible pacing, inconsistencies, and the misplaced word bubbles.

You forgot about all the art mistakes.

 

[Drunken Pickle]

Like I said, inconsistencies

 

[DIrishB]

I gotta disagree, outside of Ultimate Avengers (which was just awful) that had to have been my favorite time period in the Ultimate universe. Ultimate X was incredibly emotional and exciting, Ultimate Armor Wars is fantastic and probably my favorite Iron Man story, Ultimate Captain America was so badass and is my favorite Jason Aaron comic, Ultimate Doomsday was a really good mystery and finally paid off all those weird things about Ultimate Fantastic Four, New Ultimates is my favorite Ultimates story and is just really good, Ultimate Thor was pretty good, and then Ultimate Spider-Man was in it's silver age and was a lot of fun.

Some of those were decent stories, but the fact New Ultimates is your favorite Ultimates story is just...there really are no words. And Ultimate Doomsday was an interesting idea that was executed horribly. There was no great mystery, it was obvious from the start. A great mystery keeps both the reader and protagonists guessing until the reveal...only the protagonists were in the dark in this case, the readers all knew what was going on.

Again, I liked the idea of Reed becoming a villain, but it was poorly handled overall. His motivations, complete change of character and demeanor, it was very poorly handled.

 

[wyokid]

Some of those were decent stories, but the fact New Ultimates is your favorite Ultimates story is just...there really are no words.

It's the first time they feel like actual people in their own book. Jeph Loeb and Sam Humphries have been the only Ultimates writers I've enjoyed.

And Ultimate Doomsday was an interesting idea that was executed horribly. There was no great mystery, it was obvious from the start. A great mystery keeps both the reader and protagonists guessing until the reveal...only the protagonists were in the dark in this case, the readers all knew what was going on.

Again, I liked the idea of Reed becoming a villain, but it was poorly handled overall. His motivations, complete change of character and demeanor, it was very poorly handled.

I didn't see Reed being the bad guy coming at all. I took his death at face value so I was shocked and loved his motives. It's a shame Hickman made him really dull and uninteresting (until Sam Humphries fixed that only for Fialkov to come in and make him less interesting yet again).

 

[DIrishB]

It's the first time they feel like actual people in their own book. Jeph Loeb and Sam Humphries have been the only Ultimates writers I've enjoyed.

Loeb made them bad 90's comic caricatures that lacked personality or relatability. Humphries stuff, while better than Loeb's, was pretty forgettable.

I didn't see Reed being the bad guy coming at all. I took his death at face value so I was shocked and loved his motives. It's a shame Hickman made him really dull and uninteresting (until Sam Humphries fixed that only for Fialkov to come in and make him less interesting yet again).

I don't know how you can take any character's death in comics at face value. As they say, if someone dies they'll return at some point, unless they're Uncle Ben.

And again, I liked the idea of Reed as a villain, but his transition from hero to villain was unbelievable and one dimensional. As I said, it was executed very poorly. His motives were also a complete departure from the protagonist Reed. I could understand if his motives were somehow linked to his actions as his years as a hero, but misunderstood by the other heroes, but it was just a case of "Oh, I've spent a long time through relative time perception away from the world and now I'm going to save it by nuking Washington DC and ruling the world." He ended up having the same attitude as his arch-enemy Doom, which just made him a blatant hypocrite. You'd think someone that intelligent would be aware of his own imbecilic hypocrisy.

 

[Zeek]

I remember the age of the Ultimate Miniseries. They all felt like one issue too short, and as some were on the verge of being genuinely great, that was really disappointing. 5 issues, man, not 4.

Thor and Armor Wars were probably the best, though Ultimate Human is better than Armor Wars (and still suffers from the one-issue-too-short thing). I didn't like Ultimate Cap, because it subscribed too hard to the notion that Ultimate Steve is a "MURRRICA" douchebag ("DOES ANYONE HERE SPEAK AMERICAN" ugh), a characterization of his that I maintain is deeply misunderstood outside of Utimates and Ultimates 2. Ultimate X is probably the best thing that Loeb has ever done for the UU, and though that's not saying much, I do find it surprisingly readable. By the same token, New Ultimates is his best work with the Ultimates, but I don't think it's as good as Ultimate X and it's another pointless story that goes nowhere and has the bonus of that really awkward scene where Tony talks about visiting Jeph Loeb's kid in the hospital. Everyone is still weird and out of character. I'm glad he was taken off the Ultimate team after that.

Doomsday, though? Ugh. Bendis has no sense of appropriate pacing; he seems to be only capable of telling decompressed stories, something that DOES NOT WORK in miniseries (even a series of them). It tried to do what Galactus did but wasn't anywhere near as good.

That said, I liked Evil Reed as a villain in Hickman's Ultimates, though he may have been a bit TOO powerful and his defeat was blech.

 

[Captain Canuck]

That said, I liked Evil Reed as a villain in Hickman's Ultimates, though he may have been a bit TOO powerful and his defeat was blech.

Hickman's Ultimates was the best thing to happen to the Ultimate line in a LONG time. The defeat was ridiculous because they decided to go with the Divided We Fall cross-over and hijacked the story, so he had to end it quickly.

 

[wyokid]

Loeb made them bad 90's comic caricatures that lacked personality or relatability. Humphries stuff, while better than Loeb's, was pretty forgettable.

That was Millar that did that for me. Every single character was an unlikable murdering *******, Jeph Loeb made it fun at least and then in New Ultimates they were actually likable.

I don't know how you can take any character's death in comics at face value. As they say, if someone dies they'll return at some point, unless they're Uncle Ben.

It never occurred to me that Reed would have faked his death so why would I assume he was behind it? It even said in the recaps he was dead. It made sense to me that he was dead.

And again, I liked the idea of Reed as a villain, but his transition from hero to villain was unbelievable and one dimensional. As I said, it was executed very poorly. His motives were also a complete departure from the protagonist Reed. I could understand if his motives were somehow linked to his actions as his years as a hero, but misunderstood by the other heroes, but it was just a case of "Oh, I've spent a long time through relative time perception away from the world and now I'm going to save it by nuking Washington DC and ruling the world." He ended up having the same attitude as his arch-enemy Doom, which just made him a blatant hypocrite. You'd think someone that intelligent would be aware of his own imbecilic hypocrisy.

I thought Doomsday did a really good job tying in his whole history to him wanting to make a better world.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I thought Doomsday did a really good job tying in his whole history to him wanting to make a better world.

Now I have Michael Jackson's "Heal the World" stuck in my head.

 

[wyokid]

Now I have Michael Jackson's "Heal the World" stuck in my head.

Hey man, if you wanna make the world a better place you have to start with the man in the mirror.

 

[DIrishB]

That was Millar that did that for me. Every single character was an unlikable murdering *******,

You seem to be missing the point that they were a super hero strike team. Whether you realize it or not, soldiers kill people. Classifying it as murder is simplistic and incorrect. It's also inaccurate in terms of what actually happened in the story. Did Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Giant Man, Wasp, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, and Fury kill people? Of course. They also did so in both Ultimates 3 and New Ultimates, which you admittedly enjoyed. So I guess you're using a heck of a double standard in your judgement there.

Jeph Loeb made it fun at least and then in New Ultimates they were actually likable.

They weren't likable for me, nor was it "fun". Millard's Ultimates 1 and 2 was fun and also humorous and serious, action packed, and multi-layered. Loeb's run was simplistic, childish/immature, and turned the characters into one dimensional jokes.

It never occurred to me that Reed would have faked his death so why would I assume he was behind it? It even said in the recaps he was dead. It made sense to me that he was dead. I thought Doomsday did a really good job tying in his whole history to him wanting to make a better world.

Whether he faked his death or not, characters that "die" almost always return. And I can understand wanting to make a better world, but he did so by murdering millions and nuking Washington DC. Again, you had such a problem with the Ultimates killing people (but only when Millar wrote it), why is that ok? Because he's the villain? Furthermore, the whole clichéd excuse of needing to tear down the old to build the new is tired. And given Reed's intelligence and personality up until that point, his actions/behavior as a villain weren't transitioned from his hero persona in anything approaching a believable way. The best villains are relatable in some way. Reed's choice of actions were anything but.

That said, he's still alive, and I'd like to see him pop back up as a recurring villain. I liked the idea of Reed as a villain, and he's a truly dangerous and formidable force. I'd just like to see them do a mini series (or flashbacks in the current Ultimate FF series) that focuses on Reed's transition and mindset during his thousand years (or whatever it was) in The City. Hopefully written by someone with a knack for characterization. That might make Reed's status as a villain a lot more believable. But like I said, I like him as a villain, it's just his motivations need a lot of work.

Now I have Michael Jackson's "Heal the World" stuck in my head.

Hey man, if you wanna make the world a better place you have to start with the man in the mirror.

Brilliant!!

 

[Ultimate Houde]

What was this about again?

 

[wyokid]

You seem to be missing the point that they were a super hero strike team. Whether you realize it or not, soldiers kill people. Classifying it as murder is simplistic and incorrect. It's also inaccurate in terms of what actually happened in the story. Did Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Giant Man, Wasp, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, and Fury kill people? Of course. They also did so in both Ultimates 3 and New Ultimates, which you admittedly enjoyed. So I guess you're using a heck of a double standard in your judgement there.

I was purely stating the world Millar had created. My main focus was less on the killing and more on them being unlikable jerks. Do I not like them killing? Yeah, they're superheroes, they should have a higher code than that, but they do. They can always stop.

They weren't likable for me, nor was it "fun". Millard's Ultimates 1 and 2 was fun and also humorous and serious, action packed, and multi-layered. Loeb's run was simplistic, childish/immature, and turned the characters into one dimensional jokes.

I agree with the opposite of this. We're never going to see eye to eye on this and I've had this conversation more times than I can count so can we just agree to disagree?

Whether he faked his death or not, characters that "die" almost always return. And I can understand wanting to make a better world, but he did so by murdering millions and nuking Washington DC. Again, you had such a problem with the Ultimates killing people (but only when Millar wrote it), why is that ok? Because he's the villain? Furthermore, the whole clichéd excuse of needing to tear down the old to build the new is tired. And given Reed's intelligence and personality up until that point, his actions/behavior as a villain weren't transitioned from his hero persona in anything approaching a believable way. The best villains are relatable in some way. Reed's choice of actions were anything but.

Cliche or not I can heavily relate to wanting to rid the world of evil and build something better in it's place. I don't agree with his method but he had a lot of emotion and belief in what he was doing that's why I found him so compelling in Doomsday and not in Hickman's run where he was an emotionless heartless blegh character.

That said, he's still alive, and I'd like to see him pop back up as a recurring villain. I liked the idea of Reed as a villain, and he's a truly dangerous and formidable force. I'd just like to see them do a mini series (or flashbacks in the current Ultimate FF series) that focuses on Reed's transition and mindset during his thousand years (or whatever it was) in The City. Hopefully written by someone with a knack for characterization. That might make Reed's status as a villain a lot more believable. But like I said, I like him as a villain, it's just his motivations need a lot of work.

I love Reed as a villain, I just think Bendis did a much better job than Hickman did with him and I realize that I am in the minority on this and am okay with that. Hickman did a LOT of stuff I did not care for. Getting rid of Ultimate X is the big one (BAM! Back on topic!).