Ultimate ups and downs

Oh man! I have so, so much to say on this subject, but before it gets lost in my ocean of thoughts...

I think Ultimates 3 followed the first two better than people give it credit but I am REALLY not trying to get into that argument.

No no, please do. I'm serious. I have never, ever met somebody who likes U3 before, never mind somebody who thinks that the characters and plot were a natural evolution from Millar's first two. I'm not even being remotely sarcastic, I genuinely want to know your reasoning on this.
 
This is an amazing thread.

Ultimates and Ultimates 2 were the biggest ups. I was just talking to Proj and Ice about this a few days ago - I get that they aren't classically great comics like Watchmen or V For Vendetta or Miracleman or whatever else. But they are two of my favorite stories of all time. They got me back into comics and helped me identify the kind of books, stories, & characters that I enjoy reading. They are, in my eyes, perfect. I don't think marvel can or will ever publish something that good again. I'm not saying they won't publish good books, but not on that level telling that kind of story.

The low points are, sorry wyokid, most of the things Loeb has written. As great as Ultimates and Ultimates 2 were, Ultimates 3 was diametrically bad. It might be one of the worst comics ever published. Cap Canuck hit it right on the head - it was a pathetic attempt to be hard core, because I think that's what Loeb thought Ultimates was (when it really was the complete opposite of that!). Why is the entire team gathered in a room watching a Tony Stark sex tape? It's completely ridiculous. I don't even have the words for how bad that was and how that was the beginning of the end of the Ultimate line.

Ultimate Power and Ultimatum were just as bad. And those set a precedent for what the UU would become - cramming as much crap into a story as possible without regard for how good it would be. Those are embarrassments and everyone associated with those books should be ashamed of themselves.

Ultimate X-Men was, for the most part, a big down. The Millar run was garbage with a ton of wasted potential. Bendis was only marginally better. The only time the book was actually good was the BKV run.

Ultimate Spider-Man started out great and went downhill fast around the time of the Carnage arc (maybe a little before). MJGoblin was the low point of that book. The Miles Morales era has been, for the most part, pretty great.

Ultimate Fantastic Four was another example of wasted potential. The Warren Ellis stuff was OK; the rest was mediocre at best. Everything after the Mad Thinker story was garbage.

Warren Ellis did some pretty great work. Ultimate Human was fantastic. Most of Ultimate Galactus was pretty good.

And I don't think this is a very widely held opinion here, but I really loved Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine.
 
Ultinate galactus was pretty good. There have been many many good stories in the UU and that's what's so annoying about seeing it die. I would say there have been far more many ups then downs and if you put it side by side with the 616 I bet in the time period you would say UU had the better stories. The constant ret-cons, the constant deaths and world crisis if only marvel had held their nerve and not done these. But I guess if sales are low...
 
This is an amazing thread.

Ultimates and Ultimates 2 were the biggest ups. I was just talking to Proj and Ice about this a few days ago - I get that they aren't classically great comics like Watchmen or V For Vendetta or Miracleman or whatever else. But they are two of my favorite stories of all time. They got me back into comics and helped me identify the kind of books, stories, & characters that I enjoy reading. They are, in my eyes, perfect. I don't think marvel can or will ever publish something that good again. I'm not saying they won't publish good books, but not on that level telling that kind of story.
Really? Perfect? Wow.

The low points are, sorry wyokid, most of the things Loeb has written. As great as Ultimates and Ultimates 2 were, Ultimates 3 was diametrically bad. It might be one of the worst comics ever published. Cap Canuck hit it right on the head - it was a pathetic attempt to be hard core, because I think that's what Loeb thought Ultimates was (when it really was the complete opposite of that!). Why is the entire team gathered in a room watching a Tony Stark sex tape? It's completely ridiculous. I don't even have the words for how bad that was and how that was the beginning of the end of the Ultimate line.

Ultimate Power and Ultimatum were just as bad.
I really think Ultimatum was MUCH worse that Ultimates 3. There was no story, just strung together scenes of people dying gruesomely.

Warren Ellis did some pretty great work. Ultimate Human was fantastic. Most of Ultimate Galactus was pretty good.
Ultimate Galactus was okay, but I realy hate Brandon Peterson's CG artwork. Ultimate Nightmare was really really great, but I felt like it went down hill steadily through Ultimate Secret, Ultimate Extinction, and Ultimate Vision. Especially when I found out that Ultimate Xavier defeated Gah Lac Tus the EXACT same way 616 Xavier defeated the Z'Nox invasion way back in X-Men #65 (1970).

And I don't think this is a very widely held opinion here, but I really loved Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine.
I was just impressed they actually finally finished it.
 
Really? Perfect? Wow. I really think Ultimatum was MUCH worse that Ultimates 3. There was no story, just strung together scenes of people dying gruesomely.

That should totally have been the tag line of Ultimatum.

Ultimate Galactus was okay, but I realy hate Brandon Peterson's CG artwork. Ultimate Nightmare was really really great, but I felt like it went down hill steadily through Ultimate Secret, Ultimate Extinction, and Ultimate Vision. Especially when I found out that Ultimate Xavier defeated Gah Lac Tus the EXACT same way 616 Xavier defeated the Z'Nox invasion way back in X-Men #65 (1970). I was just impressed they actually finally finished it.
Encyclopedic. I agree with E, UWvsH was a good story.
 
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Fun fact: The Ultimates is the only U.U comic that has been translated into Japanese and released there domestically, with a wraparound ad using it to cross-promote The Avengers movie. I ran across it in a bookstore once, and will probably pick it up once I finish buying the manga series I'm reading. I kinda want to see how its cultural references are translated.

Anyways. Ultimate Spidey is actually what got me into comics in the first place - my high school library had a copy on the shelf, and I knew the title from the game. I was completely hooked, and I'm with Captain Canuck: I don't think it ever got bad, with the exception of the WAR OF THE SYMBIOTES arc. That story is atrocious, and for my money, the only downright awful story told in the book's long run. It definitely had a bit of slump there for a while, but I felt most of the arcs from Silver Sable through Ultimate Knights were just mediocre, not bad (yes, even DEADPOOL, and I'm actually in the minority that didn't outright despise the CLONE SAGA). My favourite arc is easily VENOM, but LEGACY is a close second. And ULTIMATE SIX is what piqued my interest in The Ultimates.

And I'm glad it did! The Ultimates is excellent, and I can't say much that hasn't been said about it already. Whedon's intro to the hardcover sums it up nicely: Millar deconstructs the idea of a superhero just enough for you to worry about the team, but not so much that you're not cheering for them when they succeed against the odds. Ultimate Cap is what made me interested in the concept of Captain America, and though I've since come over to the boy scout version some (largely thanks to Brubaker and the Cap movie), I have a huge soft spot for Millar's nuanced man-out-of-time, to the point where I get embarrassingly defensive when people refer to him as a douchebag/***hole/whatever. And then the sequel! Ultimates 2 is such a tense, paranoid piece of writing, and is such a great follow-up to the original both story-wise and thematically (but did anybody ever read that aborted series War Heroes that Millar did later, that he was billing as the spiritual successor? Boy am I glad that didn't end up being the actual Ultimates 3!). I felt a bit let down by the conclusion to GRAND THEFT AMERICA, but largely left with pretty great impressions. Honestly, these are pretty easily the best things Millar's ever written - to this day, I'm astonished that the same guy who wrote Nemesis managed such great character development and worldbuilding.

I recall being a bit put off by Millar's UXM, though, even when I first read it. If Ultimates is everything good about Millar's writing, then UXM has to be everything awful - 90's XTREEEME all over the place, absolutely no sense of character voice, all of it. I really liked Bendis' stuff though, especially that one-shot where Wolverine has to assassinate a young mutant and the crossover with USM, and of course Vaughan's stuff. But the thing is, the book was never able to find a consistent vision or voice, and so it just sort of meandered, with little to no larger purpose to any of its stories.

I've never read UFF. I did love the Galactus trilogy and Ultimate Human, though, and while I agree with DirishB that Ultimate Nightmare is the best, and that the three generally decrease in quality as they go on, I enjoy the final product as a whole just fine. Boy, do things go downhill from here, though.

I never actually read Ultimate Power until a few years ago, but man, was it ever awful. Artwork, story, all of it. I went into Ultimates 3 with a sort of cautious optimism, but I doubt I would have if I'd read that dreck first. And U3 was BAD. I can't believe so many issues were used to do so little. The plot was a confusing (and utterly pointless) mess, the characters were one-note at best, and any remaining realism in the Ultimate line was dashed on the rocks.

AND THEN ULTIMATUM WAS SOMEHOW WORSE. I didn't think I would ever encounter a comic as bad as U3, but there it was. I actually destroyed the second issue; I was drinking with some friends, got on a rant about the series, and then just fell silent for a minute, looked and the book on my table, and tore it in two. Garbage. (I...I promise that makes me sound more drunk and more violent than I actually am).

I'll take a breather there, before getting into the later stuff, because this post is already enormous. I think, though, that this shows just how much the U.U means to me. It was my gateway into comics, and love it or hate it, it'll be a shame to see it go.
 
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This is an amazing thread.

Ultimates and Ultimates 2 were the biggest ups. I was just talking to Proj and Ice about this a few days ago - I get that they aren't classically great comics like Watchmen or V For Vendetta or Miracleman or whatever else. But they are two of my favorite stories of all time. They got me back into comics and helped me identify the kind of books, stories, & characters that I enjoy reading. They are, in my eyes, perfect. I don't think marvel can or will ever publish something that good again. I'm not saying they won't publish good books, but not on that level telling that kind of story.

The low points are, sorry wyokid, most of the things Loeb has written. As great as Ultimates and Ultimates 2 were, Ultimates 3 was diametrically bad. It might be one of the worst comics ever published. Cap Canuck hit it right on the head - it was a pathetic attempt to be hard core, because I think that's what Loeb thought Ultimates was (when it really was the complete opposite of that!). Why is the entire team gathered in a room watching a Tony Stark sex tape? It's completely ridiculous. I don't even have the words for how bad that was and how that was the beginning of the end of the Ultimate line.

Ultimate Power and Ultimatum were just as bad. And those set a precedent for what the UU would become - cramming as much crap into a story as possible without regard for how good it would be. Those are embarrassments and everyone associated with those books should be ashamed of themselves.

Ultimate X-Men was, for the most part, a big down. The Millar run was garbage with a ton of wasted potential. Bendis was only marginally better. The only time the book was actually good was the BKV run.

Ultimate Spider-Man started out great and went downhill fast around the time of the Carnage arc (maybe a little before). MJGoblin was the low point of that book. The Miles Morales era has been, for the most part, pretty great.

Ultimate Fantastic Four was another example of wasted potential. The Warren Ellis stuff was OK; the rest was mediocre at best. Everything after the Mad Thinker story was garbage.

Warren Ellis did some pretty great work. Ultimate Human was fantastic. Most of Ultimate Galactus was pretty good.

And I don't think this is a very widely held opinion here, but I really loved Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine.

I dropped out of the line for the last while, BUT, if you take me, add the ability to spell, and to create sentences at an adult level, I could have honestly written every single sentiment expressed above by E. Every nuance of the line seems to have struck us identically. E - if you switch almost exclusively to Image comics, and find yourself becoming a cranky old man, careful- you may be turning into me (and you don't want that)
 
Really? Perfect? Wow.

I was careful to say perfect in regards to what I like in a comic. Ultimates/Ultimates 2 is my ideal comic story.

Especially when I found out that Ultimate Xavier defeated Gah Lac Tus the EXACT same way 616 Xavier defeated the Z'Nox invasion way back in X-Men #65 (1970).

Eh. Warren Ellis has a history of adapting existing (even old) stories like that, so it doesn't bother me in the least.

I dropped out of the line for the last while, BUT, if you take me, add the ability to spell, and to create sentences at an adult level, I could have honestly written every single sentiment expressed above by E. Every nuance of the line seems to have struck us identically. E - if you switch almost exclusively to Image comics, and find yourself becoming a cranky old man, careful- you may be turning into me (and you don't want that)

I am reading far more Image books than I was, say, a year ago...
 
...and I bet you ARE OLDER than you were a year ago.
It's happening. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen the two of us in the same room at the same time.
Weird!
 
...and I bet you ARE OLDER than you were a year ago.
It's happening. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen the two of us in the same room at the same time.
Weird!

I am, like, freaking out here, man.

Yeah, I understood that. I wonder if I feel that way about any story I've read...

Probably! It's strange to me that you aren't able to tell.
 
Probably! It's strange to me that you aren't able to tell.

Well, I just can't think of any. I can think of a few stories that I couldn't put down (Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright, Loeb's Spider-Man: Blue) but neither of them were perfect - especially Spider-Man: Blue. There are classic stories that need to never be messed with (The Death of Gwen Stacy - Screw you JMS!) but classic and perfect are different.

Maybe Hickman's run on Fantastic Four/FF? Or Green Lantern Reborn? Those stories both perfectly captured the heart of what the F4 and Green Lantern are all about and told a rich and deep story. It's funny, I can't think of anything like that for Spider-Man. Maybe I'm really hard to please because he's my favourite.

OH! Maybe the Kid Who Collects Spider-Man from Amazing Spider-Man #248. Roger Stern was the man.
 
Ok, I'll stop being a goofball long enough to ask a related side question (because the notion of the 'perfect' comic interests me :) )

Are you currently reading anything that MAY turn into the perfect comic for you, but you're not yet sure because it's incomplete? Both Saga and Manhattan Projects MAY be those comics for me. (Immortal Iron Fist vol 1 and 2 were perfect for me, and Ultimates 1 and 2 were close)
 
Ok, I'll stop being a goofball long enough to ask a related side question (because the notion of the 'perfect' comic interests me :) ) Are you currently reading anything that MAY turn into the perfect comic for you, but you're not yet sure because it's incomplete? Both Saga and Manhattan Projects MAY be those comics for me. (Immortal Iron Fist vol 1 and 2 were perfect for me, and Ultimates 1 and 2 were close)

Lol, Saga really is perfect. God that would make an amazing premium channel show (aimed at adults).
 
Ok, I'll stop being a goofball long enough to ask a related side question (because the notion of the 'perfect' comic interests me :) )

Are you currently reading anything that MAY turn into the perfect comic for you, but you're not yet sure because it's incomplete? Both Saga and Manhattan Projects MAY be those comics for me. (Immortal Iron Fist vol 1 and 2 were perfect for me, and Ultimates 1 and 2 were close)

Saga is already "perfect".

It's only one issue in but Black Science has potential to be perfect. The general plot is very appealing to me and I enjoy most of Rick Remender's writing, so I'm excited for it.
 
Once again -very similar!
Black Science was great! I'm going to suggest you check out Zero by Ales Kot (on Image)
Different artist on each issue, but the colorist is the same, and as a result, the continuity is in the 'palette' - Great story so far, with a broken narrative feel. Similar vibe to Casanova, but a little less 'nudge nudge wink wink'.
 
Once again -very similar!
Black Science was great! I'm going to suggest you check out Zero by Ales Kot (on Image)
Different artist on each issue, but the colorist is the same, and as a result, the continuity is in the 'palette' - Great story so far, with a broken narrative feel. Similar vibe to Casanova, but a little less 'nudge nudge wink wink'.

The color palette on Black Science was one of my favorite things about it. The overall look of the book is great.

I read a few issues of the most recent volume of Casanova and couldn't get into it. It was like it was trying too hard to be whatever it was it was trying to be. I lost interest.

I don't think I've heard of Zero but I'll check it out.
 

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