Ultimate Spider-Woman Returns

[thee great one]

I dunno, I always thought she was the best thing to come out of the Clone Saga. That's not saying much, but I thought she was interesting enough.

I agree,


I love the idea of Peter Parker finding himself female with no future. What do you do now?

I posted about this awhile ago. >-<

 

[mike3717]

Because it would be too creepy if she did it from her vagina?

:lol::lol::lol::lol: Nice.

 

[ourchair]

Ultimate Spider-Woman > Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy

Also :heart: TwilightEL.

 

[Zombipanda]

That's one of the major problems I have with USM. There are so many great plot points like this, that could be dark or hilarious or exciting, that get dropped. Explore issues of identity and gender? Nah, just pile a bunch of shocks (tail clone! girl clone! harvey dent clone! six armed clone! dad alive! gwen alive! gwarnage! dad clone! mj goblin! IT WASN'T THE ARMS IT WAS THE METAAAAAL!)

Agreed. Every single one of these plot devices has potential to be really good. Each of the clones had a premise that could have been uniquely expanded into individual foils for Pete.

The Scorpion is Spider-Man without the life experience that makes Spider-Man a hero. He has all the kid's powers, grafted to a weaponized exoskeleton, but his memories are scrambled in favor of military directives. That's cool. But he didn't do anything.

Kaine is Peter without the naivete. He's seen first-hand the lengths that his handlers will go to. He's seen the impending genetics war that Pete has only glimpsed from afar. And he's determined that the only way to preserve his family is to make them tough enough to handle the ****storm to come. That's cool. But instead of exploring the legitimate but flawed logic of a Peter pushed to the edge, he's hamstringed into a throwaway villain.

Tarantula is Pete without the social support. His mutations insure that he'll never have the support of friends and family, or even of the general public, that could properly anchor him. That's cool too. Instead he just hangs out in the background.

There's the Richard Parker clone, which is kind of stupid... But something definitely could be done there instead of just turning him into a mouthpiece for exposition.

And then there's Spider-Woman, who, at the most pivotal period of young adulthood, is slung into a sexual identity crisis. She's fairly emotionally balanced, but there's little chance for her to lead a normal life. And then there's the question of sexuality: genetics vs. experience, which one determines her orientation? Either way, the two are so tangled that she'll be sexually and socially ****ed-up for the rest of her life. Personally, I think the character would be a perfect fit for Ultimates.

Each of the Spidey clones embodies Peter with just one fundamental absence of character that makes them incapable of being Spider-Man.

Even Gwarnage and Doc Ock aren't inherently bad ideas. They're just executed terribly.

I think Bendis just stumbles upon these ideas without having any understanding of their implications or how they could serve the story. It reminds me of situations where a really good writer puts together a bunch of high concept ideas, and then a mediocre writer takes over the task of putting them on paper, and the whole thing just falls flat.

one on top of the other for an entire arc while devoting the majority of the landmark hundredth issue to a long, complicated story that isn't even true. Have Peter struggle to fight a corrupt police chief he used to trust? Nah, she'll just get shot in an annual and never be mentioned again. I could go on.

He just has no follow-through. He can conceptualize ideas in static space, but then has no clue on how to actually execute them in action. So we get the repetitive process of Introduction->Talking Head->Death. Sometimes it seems like these are the only three things Bendis knows how to do, which amazes me considering how much he decompresses all his stories.

 

[Gemini]

Agreed. Every single one of these plot devices has potential to be really good. Each of the clones had a premise that could have been uniquely expanded into individual foils for Pete.

The Scorpion is Spider-Man without the life experience that makes Spider-Man a hero. He has all the kid's powers, grafted to a weaponized exoskeleton, but his memories are scrambled in favor of military directives. That's cool. But he didn't do anything.

Kaine is Peter without the naivete. He's seen first-hand the lengths that his handlers will go to. He's seen the impending genetics war that Pete has only glimpsed from afar. And he's determined that the only way to preserve his family is to make them tough enough to handle the ****storm to come. That's cool. But instead of exploring the legitimate but flawed logic of a Peter pushed to the edge, he's hamstringed into a throwaway villain.

Tarantula is Pete without the social support. His mutations insure that he'll never have the support of friends and family, or even of the general public, that could properly anchor him. That's cool too. Instead he just hangs out in the background.

There's the Richard Parker clone, which is kind of stupid... But something definitely could be done there instead of just turning him into a mouthpiece for exposition.

And then there's Spider-Woman, who, at the most pivotal period of young adulthood, is slung into a sexual identity crisis. She's fairly emotionally balanced, but there's little chance for her to lead a normal life. And then there's the question of sexuality: genetics vs. experience, which one determines her orientation? Either way, the two are so tangled that she'll be sexually and socially ****ed-up for the rest of her life. Personally, I think the character would be a perfect fit for Ultimates.

Each of the Spidey clones embodies Peter with just one fundamental absence of character that makes them incapable of being Spider-Man.

Even Gwarnage and Doc Ock aren't inherently bad ideas. They're just executed terribly.

I think Bendis just stumbles upon these ideas without having any understanding of their implications or how they could serve the story. It reminds me of situations where a really good writer puts together a bunch of high concept ideas, and then a mediocre writer takes over the task of putting them on paper, and the whole thing just falls flat.



He just has no follow-through. He can conceptualize ideas in static space, but then has no clue on how to actually execute them in action. So we get the repetitive process of Introduction->Talking Head->Death. Sometimes it seems like these are the only three things Bendis knows how to do, which amazes me considering how much he decompresses all his stories.

I think Bendis is keeping a talented writer in his basement, and he get's idea's from him, but he's not smart enough to get the writer to expand the idea's into an actual story.

So instead we get this sctattershot of random idea's that are never followed up on, unless enough people complain about it on jinxworld

 

[DIrishB]

I'm still convinced Bendis' biggest problem is he writes too many books. 2-3 per month is plenty. I don't know why he feels the need to whore himself out so much...he's like the Madonna of the comic industry. If he cut down on his titles every month (which is like what, 5-6?), he could actually focus on the story beyond just those occasional flashes of good ideas and then merely connecting the dots with a bunch of drivel.

Of course, it could be a money issue. Full body waxes every week can add up.

 

[Captain Canuck]

tail clone! girl clone! harvey dent clone! six armed clone! dad alive! gwen alive! gwarnage! dad clone! mj goblin! IT WASN'T THE ARMS IT WAS THE METAAAAAL!)

haha, that was a pretty adept summary of the clone saga...you just forgot "Peter loves MJ, Kitty hates them both" at the end

I'm still convinced Bendis' biggest problem is he writes too many books. 2-3 per month is plenty. I don't know why he feels the need to whore himself out so much...he's like the Madonna of the comic industry. If he cut down on his titles every month (which is like what, 5-6?), he could actually focus on the story beyond just those occasional flashes of good ideas and then merely connecting the dots with a bunch of drivel.

so true! He was good until he decided that he could write all of the books Marvel was putting out!

 

[Langsta]

Bendis writes a lot of ****ing stuff....not just the amount of titles he writes, but the stuff in the ****ing titles. The way his characters talk, the "talking heads" thing, it annoys me. I don't want to sit down and read every "um" or repeated word at the beginning of each sentence. His characters will be like, "Um, that-that's why this happened. I-I synthesized the-the DNA sample to-to blah blah blah." Whatever. His characters stutter. I don't want to read someone stutter, let alone hear them stutter. I actually do talk like that sometimes, but it needs to be toned down when you're writing a comic. And Bendis writes ****ing movie scripts for his comics.

But anyways. I think it was Compound who originally suggested that MJ be Spider-Woman. I think it's a better idea than a Peter clone, and I think it's better than what's recently been done to MJ under Bendis' pen - turning her into a hairy red Goblin *****.

 

[Lynx]

But anyways. I think it was Compound who originally suggested that MJ be Spider-Woman. I think it's a better idea than a Peter clone, and I think it's better than what's recently been done to MJ under Bendis' pen - turning her into a hairy red Goblin *****.

MJ shouldn't have powers. Period. It seriously takes away from her dynamic when she does. Just like she should never have been a supermodel in 616.

 

[TwilightEL]

Agreed. Every single one of these plot devices has potential to be really good. Each of the clones had a premise that could have been uniquely expanded into individual foils for Pete.

SERIOUSLY. Reading the Clone Saga is ******* heartbreaking. Bendis wanted it to be the climax of the whole genetic-abuse military-industrial-complex plotline that's been part of the series since the first issue, and it could've been. It had the potential to tie together all the themes of the book brilliantly.

Kaine is Peter without the naivete. He's seen first-hand the lengths that his handlers will go to. He's seen the impending genetics war that Pete has only glimpsed from afar. And he's determined that the only way to preserve his family is to make them tough enough to handle the ****storm to come. That's cool. But instead of exploring the legitimate but flawed logic of a Peter pushed to the edge, he's hamstringed into a throwaway villain.

Exactly! Kaine is the most interesting part of the Clone Saga. What could push Peter to that point? How would Peter and MJ react to seeing how far he could go? What the hell happened to his face? We never got an exploration of the other clones' thought processes, and that's something really regrettable.

Tarantula is Pete without the social support. His mutations insure that he'll never have the support of friends and family, or even of the general public, that could properly anchor him. That's cool too. Instead he just hangs out in the background.

Tarantula just plain shouldn't have existed. He didn't do anything.

There's the Richard Parker clone, which is kind of stupid... But something definitely could be done there instead of just turning him into a mouthpiece for exposition.

I actually really like the idea of Peter's dad being alive, but being a total douchebag. A lot of Peter's enemies are corrupt executives and scientists who tie into the theme of genetic manipulation that goes back for a generation or two before Peter. He's always seen his dad as a sympathetic hero in that story--the innocent scientist who was taken advantage of by the military-industrial complex when all he wanted to do was help people.

It would completely challenge Peter's worldview if he finds out that his dad became part of the organizations he's been fighting against since he became Spider-Man. Does he just turn on his dad? Does this force him to understand the viewpoint of the other side, and how even the most innocent desires can be perverted? Is the hundredth issue not a complete waste of paper and ink?

Nope. It's just a clone. His dad died when he was a kid--er, that is, when he was a baby.

Each of the Spidey clones embodies Peter with just one fundamental absence of character that makes them incapable of being Spider-Man.

I KNOW! The Clone Saga should be the ultimate exploration of Peter's character. Every clone would've taught us--and him, and the other characters--something new about him. How is he affected by masculinity and sex? How much does he rely on MJ and Aunt May and what would he do without them? What could push him to insanity?

But we don't learn anything about the clones' personalities, motivation and history. Jessica is barely touched upon, and only as part of an infodump.

I think Bendis just stumbles upon these ideas without having any understanding of their implications or how they could serve the story. It reminds me of situations where a really good writer puts together a bunch of high concept ideas, and then a mediocre writer takes over the task of putting them on paper, and the whole thing just falls flat.

He just has no follow-through. He can conceptualize ideas in static space, but then has no clue on how to actually execute them in action. So we get the repetitive process of Introduction->Talking Head->Death. Sometimes it seems like these are the only three things Bendis knows how to do, which amazes me considering how much he decompresses all his stories.

It's so ******* true. It seems like all his characters are just vehicles for playing out shallow "What if...?" scenarios that he's not skilled enough to develop. His plotlines don't feel like natural extensions of the story.

Am I the only one who feels like he can't grasp getting inside his character's heads? Maybe the continuity issues are part of this. He views the story as just that, a story, not an event within a universe. He can't get into the characters' heads and think "At this point, this is their past and this is their future." And nobody changes. They react to things in the short-term, but... just look at how MJ and Peter act compared to their volume one selves. They've barely changed at all.

I'm still convinced Bendis' biggest problem is he writes too many books. 2-3 per month is plenty. I don't know why he feels the need to whore himself out so much...he's like the Madonna of the comic industry. If he cut down on his titles every month (which is like what, 5-6?), he could actually focus on the story beyond just those occasional flashes of good ideas and then merely connecting the dots with a bunch of drivel.

I dunno. Thinking back on Alias and his Daredevil run, I think some of the problems I mentioned apply to those books. They're just less obvious and work better with the way he wrote those titles.

haha, that was a pretty adept summary of the clone saga...you just forgot "Peter loves MJ, Kitty hates them both" at the end

Word, Canuck. Word.

MJ shouldn't have powers. Period. It seriously takes away from her dynamic when she does. Just like she should never have been a supermodel in 616.

It takes away from the entire mood of the book. It's too... I don't know... Saturday morning cartoon show. It seems childish, plus it takes away from the impact of him having powers in the first place. Powers should still be a big screaming deal in the UU, not like 616, the universe where sticking your finger in a light socket can make you a metahuman.