Ultimate Sandman

Issued said:
After how Flint was profiled in USM, there is no way we can create a symphatic villain out of him. He can't beat up his girlfriend and stay as a good guy.

Electro has a greater plan! He is greedy and stuff. He has a target. And he is the shocking villain version of spidey (don't worry , this will only hurt a lot!!).

On the other hand Ultimate Sandman ... well not much is known to him except of what DeWolfe told about him.And what she told is really not-so-nice.But the list she gave her isnt a list for a villain with a greater plan. He is just a natural bad guy , and he can stay like that.

Symphatic villains??I think USM has pretty much of them. There sure is The Hobgoblin as the best example.Unlucky kiddo went Hulkish is symphatic.
And we have Herman The Shocker , not exactly symphatic , but I always feel excited when i see him , because something funny will happen for sure :).
Not all villains need to have super powers , DeWolfe was a symphatic villain , until we learnt that she was one.
And there is Venom.Ultimate Venom is one of the best defined characters in Ultimate Universe, you can feel him.To admit I actually felt sorry when Peter couldn't find Eddie on the rooftops at the end of the storyline.Why? I tell you , its not about spidey, its because i wanted to know what happened to Venom after that incident (anything but the crappy video game could satisfact me).
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So Sandman would have the same personality as Electro, only with less vision? Yawn.

That's what retcons for, one can that retcon that little description, considering if that's the only thing that is getting the way, its easy take care for. One idea is William Baker has one of Justin Hammer's workers and volunteered for the experiment in exchange for the money that was promised. after the experiment Hammer locked Baker up and treat him like a lab rat. In order to ensure that the police did investigate him regarding Baker's disappearance, Hammer framed Baker, making it look like the he was leading a double life life as criminal who's real name was Flint Marko (he falisified records, bribed police officers and even paid woman to say she was Flint's mistress and that Flint has assaulted her) this is throw everyone off the trail, now the police are looking for a criminal, instead of innocent missing person and thus they won't investigate him. Not perfect, but it does the job ( there have been bigger retcons in the UU, like Nick fury being white when he was introduced to the UU.)

Out of the villains you mentioned only Harry was the only real symapthetic one and frankly I want a sympathetic villain who isn't connected to Peter, I want Peter to feel sorry for a villain because he is a human being, not because the villain was Peter's best friend. Plus the Hobgoblin story was botched, so its not the best example

As for the others, Shcoker is not sympathetic, if he's sympathetic, do you think Stilt-Man is sympathetic A sympathetic villain should have his life ruined by circumstance, not by his own poor choices. There is nothing to stop herman from trying to get honest work, he just seems too lazy or foolish to do so. I don't feel sorry for him.

As for Venom, what do you think that any psychopath with a sob story, is smypathetic? Venom was a psychopathic thug who killed innocent people, if he died on that roop top, that's just his bad karma catching up with him and I don't feel sorry for him. No one forced Eddie to become Venom, circumstance didn't ruin his life, Eddie ruined his life because he's evil psychopath thug, end of story. I don't feel sorry for him.

Dewolfe wasn't sympathetic either, she was just greedy and was killed for being crooked cop. I don't feel sorry for her.
 
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The_Overlord said :
bla bla bla (too long to quote but i got the idea)

dont come too hard on me :) for venom eddie was "not" a thug.Sure he doesn't have an angelic personality,acting like a jerk hitting on gwen and stuff are not nice.But that doesn't make him a thug.The Venom Suit ruined his life because, now he simply doesn't have one, also the suit is slowly eating him and stuff you know the story.So i feel sorry for him.

Shocker, i think my word for him is symphatic not sympathetic ;) or i might be wrong , but that's totally what I meant.DeWolfe was a desperate officer trying to change something but didn't have enough power to untli we learnt she was working for Fisk.That makes her symphatetic for some time.

Sandman isn't a Visionless Electro, Flint Marko is just "bad" he cant be good.The word "good" is not inside him.It doesn't exist.Electro can start acting him if it'll help him go 1 step up.Eddie can be a good guy after seeing what a hell his grudge to peter created in his life.Shocker can be a goodbye and give up being a lame villain anytime of the day.DeWolfe could always stop working for Kingpin and do something good.But Sandman can't change anything.He is bad to the bone/sand or whatever is inside him.period.
 
Issued said:
The_Overlord said :
bla bla bla (too long to quote but i got the idea)

dont come too hard on me :) for venom eddie was "not" a thug.Sure he doesn't have an angelic personality,acting like a jerk hitting on gwen and stuff are not nice.But that doesn't make him a thug.The Venom Suit ruined his life because, now he simply doesn't have one, also the suit is slowly eating him and stuff you know the story.So i feel sorry for him.

Shocker, i think my word for him is symphatic not sympathetic ;) or i might be wrong , but that's totally what I meant.DeWolfe was a desperate officer trying to change something but didn't have enough power to untli we learnt she was working for Fisk.That makes her symphatetic for some time.

Sandman isn't a Visionless Electro, Flint Marko is just "bad" he cant be good.The word "good" is not inside him.It doesn't exist.Electro can start acting him if it'll help him go 1 step up.Eddie can be a good guy after seeing what a hell his grudge to peter created in his life.Shocker can be a goodbye and give up being a lame villain anytime of the day.DeWolfe could always stop working for Kingpin and do something good.But Sandman can't change anything.He is bad to the bone/sand or whatever is inside him.period.
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I'm not trying to be mean to you, I'm sorry if I come off that way.

If Ultimate Shcoker is not sympathetic, why did you mention him?

As for Jean DeWolfe, exactly what did she try to change things? Seems like she just wanted to miantain the status quo of corruption for her own benefit. She was an officer of the law, sworn to serve and protect society and she betrayed her badge. Ultimately she is just another cop on the take and makes her scum, she engaged in ultimate betrayal. I don't feel sorry for her and don't feel bad that Punisher shot her.

As for Venom, Eddie was a slimey creep before he became Venom, I wouldn't surprised if he's a psychopath. Also no one forced Eddie to wear the costume, he chose to wore it, therefore he ruined his own life, rather than having his life destroyed by circumstances. Plus he seems to have no regards for innocent life when pursuing his grudge against Spidey. So Eddie was a creep who ruined his own life and has no regards for anyone but himself, how is he sympathetic?

Frankly it seems like 90% of the villains in the UU are bad to the bone, its become a cliche. Seriously almost every villain in the UU is just evil and that's it, almost no villain has pathos. The only thing that said Sandman was creep is that description from Ultimate Six and that can be retconned. If Sandman is "bad to bone" how does that make him any different from the other villains who are "bad to bone"?
 
Nice point of view.Have to admit that.
Don't worry this is a discussion , it cant be effective if we dont offend each other sometimes ;)

There was a time DeWolfe was a nice villain, and I always believed she always had a bigger plan than just following Kingpin's orders.Because everytime she talked to spidey , she sounded like there was nothing she could do about the situation as a simple cop, but there is someone around like spidey and he can change the status quo.That's the feeling I always had from her.But I can always be wrong.

Well I am pretty sure if Eddie knew what the suit was capable of he would never attempt to wear it.I know he is bad.He is another dude who was already bad , and now he is double bad with the suit's powers.But I am sure if he got out of the suit even accidentaly.He would change, begging from god for a second change.

Anyway maybe I got wrong examples.But what I mean is , every other villain of USM had/has potential to go good sometime.But sandman cant.he was bad enough to kill or harm people even before he had his powers.

I cant write all I am thinking of, too much homework to deal with, cant do good with my thoughts
 
Issued said:
Nice point of view.Have to admit that.
Don't worry this is a discussion , it cant be effective if we dont offend each other sometimes ;)

There was a time DeWolfe was a nice villain, and I always believed she always had a bigger plan than just following Kingpin's orders.Because everytime she talked to spidey , she sounded like there was nothing she could do about the situation as a simple cop, but there is someone around like spidey and he can change the status quo.That's the feeling I always had from her.But I can always be wrong.

Well I am pretty sure if Eddie knew what the suit was capable of he would never attempt to wear it.I know he is bad.He is another dude who was already bad , and now he is double bad with the suit's powers.But I am sure if he got out of the suit even accidentaly.He would change, begging from god for a second change.

Anyway maybe I got wrong examples.But what I mean is , every other villain of USM had/has potential to go good sometime.But sandman cant.he was bad enough to kill or harm people even before he had his powers.

I cant write all I am thinking of, too much homework to deal with, cant do good with my thoughts
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I never got the feeling from Dewolfe, it seemed like she was just using Spider-Man as a pawn to maintain the status quo because it benefited her, I never got the feeling she was interested in changing anything. Plus its hard to make a crooked cop into a symapthetic character, I doubt anyone would think that Commissoner Loeb from Batman Year One was sympathetic.

As for Eddie he may have felt sorry for the evil he caused, but then again he may have enjoyed the evil acts he commited as Venom, we don't know. Considering what a creep Eddie was, I would bet on the former rather than the later.

Again you can't just a character has the potenial to be good and say that makes a sympathetic character. almost anyone has the potenial to be good, but they never live up that potenial no one cares, it doesn't make them sympathetic, they just seem like psychopaths who try to justify their actions with a sob story. A truly symapthetic villain should either have his or her life destroyed by circumstances they can't control or should have really good intentions, but go about achieving them in all the wrong ways. Out of all the villains in USM, only Hobgoblin seems to fit that mold and I want Spidey to have a sympathetic villain he has no personal connection to.

Again if Sandman is just "bad to bone" or "evil for evil's sake" what makes him different from all the villains in the UU who are "evil for evil's sake"? It seems like 90% of the villains are evil for evil's sake in the UU.
 
hey has anyone noticed that in Friendly Nieghborhood Spidey, Sandman is the main villian of the arc? and then other universe uncle ben is up to something? i bet they have sandman kill other ben to totally quote the moive.

And now back on topic.

i think venom and hobgoblin are USM's most sympathetic villians. Harry asked Peter to kill him. though it was a botched up bollocks of a story, his chracter was pitiable. and eddie, well to quote the ending of the game;) peter said he wasn't sure if he was scared of eddie, or scared for him. yet they portrayed eddie being ok with the suit. so yeah.

Mysterio could be a sympathetic villian. Because his career is floundering, his wife leaves him with his children, his friends think he is a laughing stock, and whenever he applies for a job he is turned down immediately. but he is a genius, and starts to steal to get by. then decides to create the perfect crime.
 
Gamma Man said:
isn't there already an Ultimate Sandman? :?
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Yeah, we're talking about what direction his character should go in.

darkspider16 said:
hey has anyone noticed that in Friendly Nieghborhood Spidey, Sandman is the main villian of the arc? and then other universe uncle ben is up to something? i bet they have sandman kill other ben to totally quote the moive.

And now back on topic.

i think venom and hobgoblin are USM's most sympathetic villians. Harry asked Peter to kill him. though it was a botched up bollocks of a story, his chracter was pitiable. and eddie, well to quote the ending of the game;) peter said he wasn't sure if he was scared of eddie, or scared for him. yet they portrayed eddie being ok with the suit. so yeah.

Mysterio could be a sympathetic villian. Because his career is floundering, his wife leaves him with his children, his friends think he is a laughing stock, and whenever he applies for a job he is turned down immediately. but he is a genius, and starts to steal to get by. then decides to create the perfect crime.
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Eddie was a total creep before he became Venom, plus Eddie ruined his own life, a tragic villain should have his destoryed by circumstance or something. I don't see how Eddie is sympathetic. I will give you Hobgoblin though

As for Mysterio, I'm not sure how he would work as a sympathetic character. Losing your job is hardly the basis for becomming a tragic character, Hell, I have lost jobs before and I don't consider myself a tragic character. A tragic character character should be someone who has their life ruined by circumstances beyond their control or commits evil acts with the best of intentions. I don't see how Mysterio would fit either of those two molds.
 
The Overlord said:
And thug villains aren't cliched? About 75% of the villains in the UU are thugs, gets kinda boring after a while. Almost all of the villains in USM's rogues gallery are either thugs or psychos, there are hardly any sympathetic villains in USM, there is great lack of pathos in the USM rogues gallery in general, there is almost no villain I feel sorry for, even Curt Conners is a jerk, maybe Hobgoblin, but still I want Spidey to feel sorry for villain because he is a human being, not because the villain in question is Peter's best friend. I say give me villain with pathos, to break up the cycle of thug and psycho villains we see all the time in USM.
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Granted,Spider-man villains are suposed to be thugs though seeing as he is a street hero.
 
Venom Melendez said:
Granted,Spider-man villains are suposed to be thugs though seeing as he is a street hero.
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Batman is a street level character and in BTAS some of his villains, like Mr. Freeze were revamped intio sympathetic characters, instead of staying one dimensional thugs. Some villains should be thugs (I don't have a problem with Electro being a thug), but why should almost all the villains be thugs? Why can't some rogue be a bit deeper and multi dimensional, there then giving them the same interchangible personality?

TwilightEL said:
If you want a villain who's not cliched, I have three words for you:

Ultimate. Skip. Wescott.
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Ewwwww, gross, no!
 
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