Ultimate Nightmare #5 discussion (spoilers)

[SeAcoW]

But training and experience matters, and the X-men bites the dust. Very good. Realistic.

*Didn't hear you said that*

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ?


Wolverine does have the must experience over 'em all.


1. He lived in like a over 100 years ( he might have forgotten, but still.. the moves goes with him ! )

2. Weapon X trained him to become the perfect soldier / Killermachine


You are really wrong here

 

[supermusli]

*Didn't hear you said that*

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ?


Wolverine does have the must experience over 'em all.


1. He lived in like a over 100 years ( he might have forgotten, but still.. the moves goes with him ! )

2. Weapon X trained him to become the perfect soldier / Killermachine


You are really wrong here

Well, yes, Wolverine is old, and has had military training. But as we know from the comics, Professor X has worked on removing his old Weapon X programming, so I doubt most of his training is left. And this guy has been brainwashed so many times, that there really is no point in measuring his experience by how old he is. And also, the main reason he is a killermachine is because of his healing factor, and not because he had the right training. The whole point with him is that he gets up again after being knocked down. Wolverine is not, and never has been a "perfect" soldier. Just a damn tough guy with unbrokable bones and razorsharp claws. This doesn´t mean he can outsmart people like Captain America in a fight.

The Ultimates on the other hand, has been trained together, as a team, to fight people with super powers, and find their weaknesses. They are the best at what they do. So no, I don´t agree with you.

 

[supermusli]

I liked your point about characterization, however, for a new member, or a reserve, don't you think Falcon was a little too potent in this arc? I mean, he was telling Capt. what to do and, in most cases, telling Fury he was wrong or answering Fury's questions. I liked Falcon, he just came off as a little too powerful.

Thanks! I agree that Falcon was a very potent and active member, especially considering that he was brand new to the team. But I can´t say I had a problem with that. He was obviously choosen for a reason, and he was an expert in these kinds of situations (oposed to Captain America and Black Widow, who is "just" elite soldiers/super spy). If the character of Sam Wilson is a potent and active person, who is good at taking the lead, then I think it´s ok to have him being bossy. Actually, this could be interesting if he continues to work with the Ultimates. Maybe his attitude will create tension in the team, wich already is made up of people with big egoes.

 

[Ice]

Well, yes, Wolverine is old, and has had military training. But as we know from the comics, Professor X has worked on removing his old Weapon X programming, so I doubt most of his training is left. And this guy has been brainwashed so many times, that there really is no point in measuring his experience by how old he is. And also, the main reason he is a killermachine is because of his healing factor, and not because he had the right training. The whole point with him is that he gets up again after being knocked down. Wolverine is not, and never has been a "perfect" soldier. Just a damn tough guy with unbrokable bones and razorsharp claws. This doesn´t mean he can outsmart people like Captain America in a fight.

You can't be more wrong. No matter what happens to Wolverine's mind, he still has his fighting skills. That's something that just sticks with him. And he really is like the "perfect soldier", NOT ONLY because of his healing factor, but also because (you know this was coming) the best at what he does. If this guy can take take out a herd of guards or cops in twenty seconds, that's something. Wolverine may not be able to outsmart cap in a battle, but he sure as hell can outlive the fight, and beat the snot out of him too. Cap may have beat up a 60-foot guy, but he won't be able to stand metal coming at him at full force, smashing his face in. The only way you can measure his training by his age is how much has he learned in all the years since he started. He may not remember, but again, it just sticks with him. Like second nature.

 

[supermusli]

You can't be more wrong. No matter what happens to Wolverine's mind, he still has his fighting skills. That's something that just sticks with him. And he really is like the "perfect soldier", NOT ONLY because of his healing factor, but also because (you know this was coming) the best at what he does. If this guy can take take out a herd of guards or cops in twenty seconds, that's something. Wolverine may not be able to outsmart cap in a battle, but he sure as hell can outlive the fight, and beat the snot out of him too.

Where has it been stated that Wolverines fighting skills is like a second nature to him? I have read most of the Ultimate line, and I don´t recall anything like that. What I do remember however, is Captain America beating him twice - once in Ultimate War, and once right here in Ultimate Nightmare. I agree that Wolverine probably would outlive the fight, like he has both times. But Cap knows how to put him to the ground - wich is why I think he has the superior tactical skills.

Cap may have beat up a 60-foot guy, but he won't be able to stand metal coming at him at full force, smashing his face in.

In order to smash Caps face in, he has to reach him. He hasn´t been able to yet, so its not a question of who is the strongest, or who has the claws. It comes down to who is left standing at the end, and so far it has been Captain America. I understand many people like Wolverine, and I think he´s cool also. But I have never got the impression that he has supreme fighting skills. I see him as a more "head on" kind of guy, and it´s not strange considering his prime strenghts (healing, unbreakable bones and claws). Captain America is trained, and forced, to use his head more in order to win. And clearly he does. He has information about Wolveine (like his real name), and he is able to use that to his advantage to confuse him, and strike

 

[Ice]

Where has it been stated that Wolverines fighting skills is like a second nature to him? I have read most of the Ultimate line, and I don´t recall anything like that. What I do remember however, is Captain America beating him twice - once in Ultimate War, and once right here in Ultimate Nightmare. I agree that Wolverine probably would outlive the fight, like he has both times. But Cap knows how to put him to the ground - wich is why I think he has the superior tactical skills.

I see the my point has just went over your head... :roll:

In order to smash Caps face in, he has to reach him. He hasn´t been able to yet, so its not a question of who is the strongest, or who has the claws. It comes down to who is left standing at the end, and so far it has been Captain America. I understand many people like Wolverine, and I think he´s cool also. But I have never got the impression that he has supreme fighting skills. I see him as a more "head on" kind of guy, and it´s not strange considering his prime strenghts (healing, unbreakable bones and claws). Captain America is trained, and forced, to use his head more in order to win. And clearly he does. He has information about Wolveine (like his real name), and he is able to use that to his advantage to confuse him, and strike

Cap's only been winning because he's been using weapons. First a gun, then a grenade. Having info to confue people or not, he only has won because he hasn't fought "man to man". To find who can truly win a fight, pit them against each other....WITH NO WEAPONS. Logan, in the end, will wip his....ya know. :wink:

 

[supermusli]

I see the my point has just went over your head... :roll:

Maybe. If so, I´m sorry. Maybe you could repeat your point. I thought you meant, that Wolverines fighting skills was in him, no matter what he could remember. Correct?

Cap's only been winning because he's been using weapons. First a gun, then a grenade. Having info to confue people or not, he only has won because he hasn't fought "man to man". To find who can truly win a fight, pit them against each other....WITH NO WEAPONS. Logan, in the end, will wip his....ya know. :wink:

Perhaps. But since when has "fair play" had anything to do with tactical skills or experience? Yes, Cap is fighting dirty, but why shouldn´t he? And if so, adamantium claws is hardly fair either. I guess it all depends on what we count as "fighting skills". I would count the ability to use weapons and information, and exploit your opponents weaknesses as fighting skills, as much as healing powers and brute strenght.

And what is the point of having them fight man to man, without weapons? It doesn´t have anything to do with reality (eh... I mean comic book reality). That would be like having Magneto in a fight, but without letting him use his magnetic powers. It doesn´t say anything about tactical skills, fighting skills or whatever. What excactly are we debating here? Is it just sheer brutal physical strenght, or what? ;-)

 

[E]

Supermusli is right...Ice I think maybe you are thinking of 616 Wolverine.

 

[Bass]

Oh, come on, the fight between the X-Men and the Ultimates was better than Ultimate War.

The Ultimates have just fought through monstrosities to find out that it's all down to an alien robot that is warning them about the end of the world by taking over earth's broadcasts. They haven't got time to play nice. They are gonna take down the X-Men, and take them down hard.

I just love the way they really put the smack down on the X-Men. And, I do love the X-Men to. I think Ellis' writing shows, quite wonderfully, how he loves them too. There is no way Ellis couldn't have written the fates of Colossus and Wolverine without falling in love with those characters.

And, if that wasn't enough, the way these two groups fight - my god, has anyone seen a crossover where the two hero teams were so well-defined? I can't think of a cross-over where the two hero teams (and their members) weren't pretty much identical except for their costumes.

Thought it was a great way to end the mini. No complaints on my end.

 

[cmdrjanjalani]

I liked how the Ultimates handled the X-Men. The X-Men may have superior powers, but the Ultimates are trained to deal with people like them. Although I still think the only reason why the Ultimates were able to bring them down was because Jean Grey was going nuts and wasn't much of a challenge of Black Widow. Still, Wolverine and Colossus getting their asses kicked by Nick Fury, Cap and Falcon is still believable because they KNOW how to, and they think before they act. Wolverine acts on impulse and Colossus is still pretty young and doesn't have as much experience as Falcon in battle, and also tones his abilities down he does not want to kill Sam, and underestimated his "normalcy".

I like Ellis, he loves to put a lot of detail in his stories to make them as realistic as possible for a world with super heroes. Also, I'm not sure why Vision was called that in 616, but in the UU, it makes perfect sense. He has seen what Galactus has done to countless worlds and having witnessed this, he was sent to warn Earth and send broadcasts about his visions. Damn, Ellis is good. :lol: I can't wait for Ultimate Secret and Arrival.

 

[Goodwill]

Don't get me wrong, I like Ellis' detail, too, however, I don't feel we got much more than what the solicitations had given us... I don't know how else they could've marketted this mini-series, however, the whole bunker in Tunguska deal was pretty much it for about three issues and then we got to the real meat, which wasn't a whole lot, right?

 

[Ricky]

short review

I like Ultimate Nightmare, now its finished. Part of it was cheesy, and I've stumbled about a lot of details that don't add up, put all together, I think its a nice story told well. I love it, when stories reach beyond the immediate field of traditional super heroes. Ellis has done that, first by his incredible display of the broadcast and its percussions, later by the way he had the Ultimates flown in like the military strike force they are, with Putins explicit approvel.
I like his take on the Ultimates, which are more soldiers then super heroes the way he writes the book. The mission in itself was interesting enough, with an interesting setting (the abandoned military bunker crawling with monstrosities). The end was in a way predictable, because I had expacted Galactus since I first saw the energy ribbons in issue 1, but the inclussion of the Vision pulled the carpet out beneath my feet. Especially since Vision was the one character I really wished to make his deput in the Ultimate Universe.
Ellis' special dedication to modern technology is quite refreshing, especially since he generally stays away from classic comic-book high-tech, but uses improved modern, real-world gadgets and explanations.
His characterization seems a bit off sometimes, and he certainly goes out of his way to NOT make any reference to continuity. My main complain however are a bunch of logical mistakes.

These are:
1. Were is Cyclops? He's led every single X-Men mission so far. I can accept Xavier sending out only a handful of X-Men, but I don't think Cyclops would be left out without a proper reason.
2. Putin deliberately said, he'd allow a small strike team into Russia, no more. However, Fury takes a complete SHIELD carrier to Tunguska. Wouldn't it have made a lot more sense, if the Heli-Carrier stayed near the Russian Border and the Strike team went into Russia with 3-4 military helicopters?
3. The helicarrier hovering above the Bunker complex also negates Furys reason, why he left Ironman home. There's more then enough space for the support crew on board, which is close enough at hand.
4. The next problem I see is this: Both the X-Men and SHIELD uses high-tech on their vessels, and they must have come within 2 miles of each other when they approached the bunker. How could they overlook each other then?
5. The only reason I can see Ellis introduced the nuclear mines was, so that the Ultimates wouldn't use radio-comms. He completely ignores this. afterwards. The Ultimates keep using their comm-devices like the mines just weren't there.
6. Why did Fury open fire on the X-Men? The logical reason would have been to order them to step down and assist in his mission. They are officially under his supreme command, after all.

Still, I think it's a great read

Ricky

 

[Caduceus]

6. Why did Fury open fire on the X-Men? The logical reason would have been to order them to step down and assist in his mission. They are officially under his supreme command, after all.

I'd have to check but I think that Nightmare is set before the Xavier Institute comes under SHIELD control. I'm not certain though. It could just be a whoopsie on Ellis' part.

 

[supermusli]

I like Ultimate Nightmare, now its finished. Part of it was cheesy, and I've stumbled about a lot of details that don't add up, put all together, I think its a nice story told well.
Ellis' characterization of the Ultimates is pretty much on spot, his fight scenes are nice, and he's done a lot of interesting pseudo-science.

Hey Ricky, I agree with most of what you wrote, especially the fact that the nuclear mines suddenly doesn´t concern them. I don´t think that was a full sized helicarrier though, it looked more like some sort of heli-destroyer or heli-cruiser. And also, it´s possibly that they could have had room for the support team Iron Man needed, but Fury only said that he didn´t have clearance to do it. We have seen earlier that SHIELD accountants can refuse him to use the optic camouflage for example, so maybe that was the reason. However, it´s strange that Fury needs clearance, when he is supposed to be head of SHIELD.

 

[supermusli]

I'd have to check but I think that Nightmare is set before the Xavier Institute comes under SHIELD control. I'm not certain though. It could just be a whoopsie on Ellis' part.

What makes you think that? Has it been mentioned anywhere? I doubt this is set before Return of the King (when Xavier Institute comes under SHIELD), but it WOULD explain both why Cyclops is missing (as he is wounded in the Savage land) and why the teams starts to fight on sight.

But come to think of it, it doesn´t fit. Wolverine and Shadow Cat is seen returning from Savage land at the beginning of Ultimate War, and telling the rest of the X-men that Cyclops is dead. After that, they are pretty much on the run until the end of Return of the King. Not to mention that Charles is captured by SHIELD during that time, so they wouldn´t have time to do this rescue mission. And it can´t take place before Ultimate War altogether, because that is when Captain America first recognizes Wolverine as Lucky Jim.

So maybe Nick Fury just was under a lot of stress, and didn´t want the X-men to interfere in this critical mission. Or maybe Ellis just felt the need for a little clash between the two teams. A bit silly, however.

 

[Ricky]

I'd have to check but I think that Nightmare is set before the Xavier Institute comes under SHIELD control. I'm not certain though. It could just be a whoopsie on Ellis' part.

Doesn't fit. Fury took control of Xavier's institute in the aftermath of the Return of the King storyline. That was 24 issues of Ultimate X-Men ago, and that's the distant past, in the world of comic-books.
Marvel generally presumes all titles coming out simultaniously also happen more or less simultaniously. If they do not, they are generally clearly marked as such ("9 months ago"). Ellis in the other hand has shown no particular interest in Ultimate comtinuity, so I don't see him going out of his way to make a series able to stand on its own fit in with old story-lines. Therefore I think we can assume pretty much, that Ultimate Nightmare happened at some point during Vaughan's run.

 

[Ricky]

Hey Super-Muesli,

I was actually going to present the exact same arguments why Nightmare couldn't happen before Fury seized control of Xavier's institute, but I decided to go for the routine seen in my last post instead, since I found that one pretty more convincing.

I've also edited my original post. You might like to scroll up again, reading a better vocalized view on the arc.
Anyway, nice to have you around. I often agree with your posts,and it's nice to have like-minded people around.

Ricky

 

[Caduceus]

Doesn't fit. Fury took control of Xavier's institute in the aftermath of the Return of the King storyline. That was 24 issues of Ultimate X-Men ago, and that's the distant past, in the world of comic-books.
Marvel generally presumes all titles coming out simultaniously also happen more or less simultaniously. If they do not, they are generally clearly marked as such ("9 months ago"). Ellis in the other hand has shown no particular interest in Ultimate comtinuity, so I don't see him going out of his way to make a series able to stand on its own fit in with old story-lines. Therefore I think we can assume pretty much, that Ultimate Nightmare happened at some point during Vaughan's run.

i do believe that its been stated that Nightmare takes place some time ago but I'm not sure it was long enough ago. Just remember that with all the delays, it actually started a good while ago and it was set before the actual time it started, I'm almost certain.

 

[E]

i do believe that its been stated that Nightmare takes place some time ago but I'm not sure it was long enough ago. Just remember that with all the delays, it actually started a good while ago and it was set before the actual time it started, I'm almost certain.

I'm pretty sure Millar said that everything the Ultimates are involved in happened between vol. 1 and vol. 2, specifically including Nightmare.

 

[Caduceus]

I'm pretty sure Millar said that everything the Ultimates are involved in happened between vol. 1 and vol. 2, specifically including Nightmare.

Yeah I remember that but I'm not certain for the X-men