Ultimate Doom Discussion

DIrishB said:
Reed wasn't bat-**** insane, which is what you're referring to. There should've been a believeable and natural progression from old goody-two shoes Reed to the one who killed his family and countless others. There wasn't even a good reason for killing his family. It was mere shock value, which at this point has no real value at all.
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Reed was constantly being accused at being at fault with everything that they had been up against. Doom, Annihilus, Super Zombies, Namor, Psycho-Man, Thanos, Squadron Supreme. Plus he was never able to fix Ben and never able to live up to his father's expectations. I could see how Reed would have a low opinion on himself and the world. And who wants to blame themselves for their problems. So he blamed science.

I hate to say this (mostly cause I'm sure I get hell for it) but, think of all those school shootings. Those kids we're constantly being pushed and bullied when they need help. And no one either saw it or wanted to see it, people can only take so much. They snapped and they took it out on everyone else. That is what I think Bendis was going for here.
 
I thought I was going to be interested in this and then I read this thread.

Seriously, I think I immediately stopped reading Ultimate comics after Ultimates 3.
 
the watcher said:
Reed was constantly being accused at being at fault with everything that they had been up against. Doom, Annihilus, Super Zombies, Namor, Psycho-Man, Thanos, Squadron Supreme. Plus he was never able to fix Ben and never able to live up to his father's expectations. I could see how Reed would have a low opinion on himself and the world. And who wants to blame themselves for their problems. So he blamed science.

I hate to say this (mostly cause I'm sure I get hell for it) but, think of all those school shootings. Those kids we're constantly being pushed and bullied when they need help. And no one either saw it or wanted to see it, people can only take so much. They snapped and they took it out on everyone else. That is what I think Bendis was going for here.
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Uuuuuuugh... That just strikes me as trite. "They picked on me and now I'm evil". The sorts of kids who go on shooting sprees have deep pathological issues. These issues are exacerbated by bullying, sure, but in turn, the bullying happens because of the sort of pathology that makes them targets of bullying. Reed never struck me as a kid teetering on the edge of super villainy. It could have been a cool conceit, sure, but there wasn't really enough pathos in the character preceding this to validate it as a plot point.

I always thought it would be more interesting if it turned out Reed was wrong after all.

ourchair said:
I thought I was going to be interested in this and then I read this thread.

Seriously, I think I immediately stopped reading Ultimate comics after Ultimates 3.
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YAY! COMPOUND'S BACK!
 
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the watcher said:
Reed was constantly being accused at being at fault with everything that they had been up against. Doom, Annihilus, Super Zombies, Namor, Psycho-Man, Thanos, Squadron Supreme. Plus he was never able to fix Ben and never able to live up to his father's expectations. I could see how Reed would have a low opinion on himself and the world. And who wants to blame themselves for their problems. So he blamed science.

I hate to say this (mostly cause I'm sure I get hell for it) but, think of all those school shootings. Those kids we're constantly being pushed and bullied when they need help. And no one either saw it or wanted to see it, people can only take so much. They snapped and they took it out on everyone else. That is what I think Bendis was going for here.
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It's still confusing. Based on one flashback, it seemed that Reed wanted to go to a world where he can go about his love of science without all the consequences and opposition such as his family, his friends and the authorities. So why did he need to attract attention and murder plenty of people? He also mentioned 'raping of science' which suggests he turned fanatical on whatever his concept of 'pure science' is, and wants to remake the world to his wanting. Then again, if that is the case why didn't he just make another Cosmic Cube or something? Seemed the easy way to do it.

Even with that I still couldn't buy the sudden change of heart to evil. The book needed that more than Spider-Woman's adventures and the long fights with Reed's hench-aliens.
 
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the watcher said:
Reed was constantly being accused at being at fault with everything that they had been up against.
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He had guilt, sure, but the only thing I remember clearly him being blamed for was the invasion of the creatures from Supreme Power. And that was pretty weak - I remember it only really being Nick Fury and hardly enough to make him kill his family, much less all the other stuff he did.
 
Captain Canuck said:
i think if they had built a solid case for Reed turning bad, this would be better. But it doesn't seem like they have (I haven't read it yet).

Like if Reed had been characterized as being sort of on the edge with pent up rage for the whole run of UFF. But he wasn't, he was nerdy and a nice guy. This really makes no sense. It's a complete character shift for him.

Or if he hadn't turned evil, just stopped caring what people thought of him and decided to pursue science regardless of the consequences.
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quoted for truth
 
E said:
He had guilt, sure, but the only thing I remember clearly him being blamed for was the invasion of the creatures from Supreme Power. And that was pretty weak - I remember it only really being Nick Fury and hardly enough to make him kill his family, much less all the other stuff he did.
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Reed did blame himself for Ben's condition and in FFR, he did feel responsible that since he made Doom, Doom's actions were his fault as well
 
the watcher said:
Reed was constantly being accused at being at fault with everything that they had been up against. Doom, Annihilus, Super Zombies, Namor, Psycho-Man, Thanos, Squadron Supreme. Plus he was never able to fix Ben and never able to live up to his father's expectations. I could see how Reed would have a low opinion on himself and the world. And who wants to blame themselves for their problems. So he blamed science.
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See, Reed really doesn't have a low opinion of himself given his comments in the Ultimate Doom trilogy. If anything, he's got a "I know better than you" stance, which may or may not be true. But despite all the being blamed for stuff, that doesn't excuse attempting and pulling off mass murder (which in a few cases was justified, and once you start a habit of causing almost world ending disasters, don't be surprised to have the finger pointed at you whether you're guilty or not).

I hate to say this (mostly cause I'm sure I get hell for it) but, think of all those school shootings. Those kids we're constantly being pushed and bullied when they need help. And no one either saw it or wanted to see it, people can only take so much. They snapped and they took it out on everyone else. That is what I think Bendis was going for here.
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Sorry, but Reed's far too intelligent to fall into that same old rigamarole. He's smart enough to realize lashing out at your tormentors makes you no better...in fact it makes you worse since you've seen both sides of the coin and choose the option which paints you in the same light as your tormentors. Reed's smart enough to be better than that. To choose the road he chose is disappointing, not because of the road he chose, but for the lame reasons and characterisation which led him there.

It sucked. End of story.
 
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E said:
He had guilt, sure, but the only thing I remember clearly him being blamed for was the invasion of the creatures from Supreme Power. And that was pretty weak - I remember it only really being Nick Fury and hardly enough to make him kill his family, much less all the other stuff he did.
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well he did threaten the Earth's very existence by creating a portal between his earth and the zombiverse. That could have been a huge threat to world security. That was 100% his fault. and Doom saved his arse.
 
Drunken Pickle said:
Reed did blame himself for Ben's condition and in FFR, he did feel responsible that since he made Doom, Doom's actions were his fault as well
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J. Agamemnon said:
well he did threaten the Earth's very existence by creating a portal between his earth and the zombiverse. That could have been a huge threat to world security. That was 100% his fault. and Doom saved his arse.
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Watcher specifically said he was being blamed...I know he felt guilty (and I said so) but my response was just that I didn't think he was being blamed by other people. There is a difference...
 
In the President Thor arc. a cop told Ben the Namor thing and the Annihilus thing was all their fault. I'm sure off pannel their was an news article or two from the Bugle. Or the New York Post or whatever blaming them for everything. And someone with a low opionon of themselves would think it's all their fault not the group as a whole. but, just his fault. I know there was a Heading on Peter's comupter during the Nightmare arc. that read "Baxter Building Nightmare: What they arn't telling us." So I ment off pannel he was being blamed.
 
the watcher said:
In the President Thor arc. a cop told Ben the Namor thing and the Annihilus thing was all their fault. I'm sure off pannel their was an news article or two from the Bugle. Or the New York Post or whatever blaming them for everything. And someone with a low opionon of themselves would think it's all their fault not the group as a whole. but, just his fault. I know there was a Heading on Peter's comupter during the Nightmare arc. that read "Baxter Building Nightmare: What they arn't telling us." So I ment off pannel he was being blamed.
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That is still different. I'm just saying there was little to no buildup to this outburst by Reed. Even if it was off panel that's not anywhere good enough.
 
E said:
That is still different. I'm just saying there was little to no buildup to this outburst by Reed. Even if it was off panel that's not anywhere good enough.
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What do you expect... It's Bendis. And I'm sure Loeb had a part in this too. Plus, it seems lately that they don't care about these books anymore. I mean look at all the mistakes they made during this.
 
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