Thunderbolts discussion (spoilers)

SHould i post here about the new Zemo Mini?

since it does say''Thunderbolts presents:Zemo born Better''


Anyway i loved it....and And Zemo number 3 is cool.




and as for the actual Thunderbolts.


Im joining this Bullseye hate train

and is it just me or is Moonstone full of it? i mean ''Venom would never kill'' who is she kidding?
 
Keep discussion of other titles in their own threads.

and is it just me or is Moonstone full of it? i mean ''Venom would never kill'' who is she kidding?

Uh...are you serious? She just got done telling the people that Jack Flag stuffed explosives in all the cars.
 
Bullseye is delightfully evil... And Swordsman is a total bastard.

And VM, I sincerely hope you're joking, she is utterly and completely full of ****! Venom almost bit the man's head off, for pete's sake... She's placating the press.
 
Can someone please give a synopsis of the issue?

I'm planning on reading it next week, but I can't wait.
 
Bullseye is delightfully evil... And Swordsman is a total bastard.

And VM, I sincerely hope you're joking, she is utterly and completely full of ****! Venom almost bit the man's head off, for pete's sake... She's placating the press.

...But thats what i siad...
 
Can someone please give a synopsis of the issue?

Basically it showcases all of their powers as they fight Jack Flag in the parking lot. Moonstone tells Radioactive Man to blow up the cars around him but Jack uses it to his advantage taking them out one by one as they attack. He impales Venom, and breaks Swordsman's sword. Songbird takes flight but Jack, who flashesback to his training with Captain America, uses a manhole cover as a shield and tosses it at her throat, leaving her to fall. Venom gets back up and is about to eat him when Moonstone calls in to shock him. Venom goes down again. Jack runs...

He's hiding in a building when out from behind him Bullseye stabs him in the back. Bullseye lifts him and tells him he's now going to be paralyzed for the rest of his life and is lucky they wouldn't let him kill him. The other Thunderbolts soldier team and Bullseye then cloak and disappear.

Moonstone is on Television spilling lies about the incident. "Venom only looked scary and wouldn't kill anyone", "Jack set up explosives in the parking lot and blew the cars up." etc...

As they're taking Jack into custody Swordsman asks for some time with him and hits him when he's down basically.

Back in his office, Norman is discussing a list of targets that the government want The Thunderbolts to go after. One of them is "Scarlet Spider" and Norman mistakenly hears "Spider-Man". He gets all paranoid and excited but when it's corrected he becomes confused. When the assistant leaves he mixes his medications together and we're shown the label saying "Do not mix"

4/5

Loved the characterizations in this.
 
Hrrm.

So I read the second issue of this series and I have to say... I think they missed the point of this.

The original Thunderbolts were super villains pretending to be heroes, right? Well, they kept that tradition with super villains pretending to be law-enforcement superheroes, as an excuse to kick the crap out of real heroes (and whatever agenda Osborne might have for the future), so that's quite nice, it's a good way to take advantage of the post-Civil War Marvel universe. I like that.

What I don't like however, and where I think the series falls down is this - Jack Flag is far, far better than the entirity of the Thunderbolts. Yes, Osborne is cool, and the super villains are cool, but come on - where was your heart lying? Did you want the Thunderbolts to beat Flag? Or did you want Flag to escape?

I definately wanted Flag to win.

And then I thought - well... why not have the series be about third-tier no-name heroes like Jack Flag. Each arc, however many issues it would be, one, two, six, what-have-you, focuses on a superhero like Jack Flag. A rather unknown superhero without much support, on his own, trying to save people in a world where the government sends supervillains to maim him and send him to jail. And the arcs focus on them, with the Thunderbolts as antagonists. You could even have the series have a longer, slowly building arc as a couple of these heroes start banding together to take down the Thunderbolts in a more pro-active stance.

I mean think about it - the first two issues show the crippling of Jack Flag at the hand of these terrible Thunderbolts, all from his point of view. They not only cripple him, they make a spectacle of it and then spin it to their advantage. The next arc is one issue on poor El Aguila, and he goes down too. Stingray. D-Man. Jolt. There's loads of these guys. And maybe after two or three arcs, finally, one of them gets away.

I think that would work. The alternative, and I would hope the series would head this way, is that the Thunderbolts take on really powerful heroes that truly challenge them, like Thor or Hulk or Spider-Man. But that list is very short, and those characters so charismatic... I think it's a mistake to base a series on villains who's sole purpose is to beat up weak, selfless superheroes. I think the reverse, a series about weak, selfless superheroes trying to do the right thing, and getting hunted down by government-sponsored supervillains and murderers would be far more exciting.

But that's me, I suppose. I think the series is alright - but I think the focus of it is wrong.
 
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I agree with everything you said. I definately wanted Jack Flag to get away somehow or at least captured unhurt, and it really sucks that he's crippled now. But I figured he was dying anyway, so that is actually kind of a surprise.

This is probably the best way to build up your less-than-stellar hero catalogue. Bullseye, Osborn, Venom, these guys will always be popular, they don't need the boost. The other Thunderbolts have been in this title for years now. It would behoove Marvel to build up a richer universe of heroes and the best way to do it is by making them the underdogs. Have them beaten and on the run and still fighting back.

Mark Gruenwald's ghost didn't even care about Jack Flag before Thunderbolts 110, but you're right, no one was rooting against him in Thunderbolts 111.
 
Hahah - I like that Gruenwald's ghost jape!

But yeah, glad you agree - I think it would've been better to not focus on the villains, keep them somewhat terrifying and unknowable, and then have heroes intelligently use the regulations of the Thunderbolts against them.

For example, the first thing any hero encountering them would do is, "How the hell is Bullseye on the team?" and they'd try to work out what kind of pull the Thunderbolts have on him. The electro-shock thing eventually gets discovered and now they have a weapon of sorts. Can they hijack the signal?

I mean - you start off with fugitive heroes, and as you continue the series it can transform into a pro-active hunt against the Thunderbolts, with lots of mileage to be taken just from that premise - how do they defeat a supervillain team, far more powerful than they, that has the backing of the entire US government and legal system?

Hell, you could even have a great tagline:

"What makes a hero?"

Actually... that doesn't make much sense. Or does it? Maybe it does.

Or does it?
 
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YOU KNEW WHAT I MEANT!
 
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Ok....having never read a thunderbolt issue before I finally jumped on with Ellis's run.

I don't know if I like this or not. I mean its good.....I'll admit it. But I can't help but agree with Bass on this. I don't really wanna see a team of badguys running around kicking the piss out lower-tier heroes. I guess I have to wait and see where this is going before I decide to drop it.


Also not help in this matter is Deodato's art. I just don't like his work. It's not bad.....it just doesn't do anything for me.


I'm all confused.
 
I'd like to see The Thunderbolts fight off 3rd stringers while we get some good inner team stories before we have them face off against someone or someones who are gonna give them a run for it. Those moments should be saved as pivotal turning points in the book. I like how this is going.
 
But that's me, I suppose. I think the series is alright - but I think the focus of it is wrong.

Bass thinks like me.

Hahah - I like that Gruenwald's ghost jape!


Hell, you could even have a great tagline:

"What makes a hero?"

Actually... that doesn't make much sense. Or does it? Maybe it does.

Or does it?

The tagline isn't great, but the idea you proposed was.
 
It was a decent issue. I was sad to see Jack Flag get stabbed. He was a cool character. I hope he can come back from this or have someone else take up his mantle.
 
So the latest issue was pretty solid.

One thing I've noticed about Ellis is that he handles pacing very well. It seems that we get one book for set-up....and another for action...and now we're back to set-up.

There is no action in this issue. Instead we actually "meet" the team. As in we are exposed their personalities. The person behind the mask and killings.

Synopsis
The team is seating at a table being debriefed by Osborn. Osborn tells them that they are a disaster. Moonstone begs to differ. Songbird begs to differ with her. Songbird says that Moonstone is not a capable leader. Blah blah blah.

The team is excused.

We then see each member (give or take) in their own private setting. It seems Radioactive Man is displeased that he is treated differently than his other teammates because he doesn't get guards following him around. He is also not to crazy about his suit. Osborn tells him that it's to ease the public perception instead of having a big racial problem.

Osborn visits Venom and we see that Mac is having problems adjusting to the symbiote. He says that he doesn't like the way it feels inside of him. Osborn actually asks him if h wants out and off the team. Mac declines. He then mentions something to effect of "Somedays I don't know how I can live like this......and somedays I wonder how I've lived without it."

We see Bullseye chained up his cell ranting about why he kills. It's pretty damn creep....yet kinda cheesy since we've heard the speech before.


We then cut to some robbers holding up a bank or something. They're thwarted by someone called The Steel Spider. This guy basically looks like a symbiote/black suit version of Stark's Iron Spidey. It's kinda cool in a knock-off kinda way.

Then we see Norman going crazy in private again. Obviously he is tieing in Steel Spider with Spidey and it looks like The Thunderbolts have their next victim.



I am seriously liking this book. But then again I like all of Ellis's stuff. I'm still not to keen on Deodato with the art...I never really liked his stuff. But it works for this book. The one thing that irks me (which other critics have mentioned) is Deodato using real people as models. It's not crazy like Land. But its obvious that Tommy Lee Jones is Osborn.........and I know I caught a couple faces I recognized there. But he isn't alone. Larroca is doing the same thing with Ellis's "NewUniversal" book also.


4/5
 
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