The Return of Bruce Wayne discussion (Spoilers!)

[J. Agamemnon]

Grant Morrison doesn't treat readers like their stupid, though. He expects, or at least promotes, the reader to be smart enough to pick up on key pieces scattered throughout panels and dialogue. I mean we've all been reading comics since we were kids or rediscovered them after X amount of years. We should be old enough to pick up on themes, clues, whathaveyou. He writes for adults that don't want stories spelled out for them. Most of all, he wants you to keep reading it over and over again, so that every time you read it, you find something you didn't catch before. That, to me, is what comics should be...for adults at least.

"One does not simply walk into Morrison novelization."

 

[Zombipanda]

I don't know, Dan. The reason Morrison is writing books like Batman is that he pulls in the numbers. He gets sales.

But you do have a point in general, I think. Just look at book sales or box office earnings. I think the general audience for any market of entertainment is predominantly looking for something accessible and easy to comprehend because, well, they work all day and they want their entertainment to unwind them. There's nothing wrong with that and the numbers show it. So I could see how the argument against Morrison writing such a big title like that could drive away new readers who pick up an issue of Batman looking for something breezy and consumable. Maybe they should replace the age ratings with difficulty ratings.

But I like my fiction to be implied and interpretive, so I've got no problem enjoying Morrison's stuff. There's generally going to be some stuff I don't quite get but I can live with that.

 

[Dancanread]

I think, like with any form of creative expression, it's just a matter of taste, and what your audience is looking for from their entertainment, which is going to vary from person to person. I guess I just skew toward the more accessible, escapist camp. Like I said, he's clearly operating at a different level than a lot of writers, and I've been interested enough to continue along with him for the ride these past few years. I think what I find most frustrating is that I can tell there are all these fantastic and complex ideas that I would love even more if they didn't always feel just a step or two out of reach. Not quite my cup of tea, but sooooo close, you know?

From a business standpoint I just wonder (a lot, actually) if it's better for us loyal long-time readers to have awesome, less accessible stories told for us that only we can appreciate, at the risk of less money coming in to the industry from a smaller audience (which I feel is kind of a problem in general for DC), versus a little spoon-feeding to get more people funneling money in, which could lead to a wider selection, which could include even more of the stuff that's just for long-timers anyway? It just seems that regular comic readers are still a small group, and growth in the industry can only benefit all of us in the long run.

Then again, the company with (IMO) the less accessible continuity is the one that's been able to keep their prices down, and the one that's better at spoon-feeding feels like it's price-gouging, so what do I know?

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I agree with Dan.

Many of his books are fun reads, but I have a feeling he puts in stuff just for himself.

 

[E]

At some point I kind of want to reread his whole Batman run through RIP to Final Crisis and ROBW so I can absorb it better, but it's hard to gear up the energy to do it. I'm so torn about Morrison's work.

I'm really digging on Batman, Inc, but even with that - you know how when you're a kid the first comics you read were just random samplings of anything that were smack dab in the middle of continuity and you didn't always know what was going on or who everybody was? That's how I feel reading Morrison, but I HAVE all the issues and I STILL feel like he's got his own thing going on that we're not all privy to. There's a hint of self-indulgence and being different just for its own sake that permeates everything. A lot of the time it's like he's writing for himself, and not the reader, and screw you if you can't keep up. I don't want to have to do research in order to enjoy my comic. The guy is undoubtedly a talent, and his ideas are unique and INCREDIBLE. I just wish the execution was more accessible, and that he showed an ounce of concern to catch people up.

I don't know, maybe my standards for the medium are too low. I mean, why shouldn't comics have their own Ulysses? Maybe if he hadn't been THE main chronicler of the character for so long. I can just picture someone trying to get into Batman for the first time, picking something up of Morrison's in the past few years and being completely lost. The deep and complex continuity might be great for us, but ultimately bad for the business.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.

EXACTLY.

The difference I guess is that I don't mind doing that research and reading other opinions and reviews in order to get it. I'd prefer I *didn't* have to. But it doesn't bother me so much.

I never get the sense that he is writing for himself. I've seen a lot of people complain about the self-indulgence in his work...it doesn't come across that way to me.

But a lot of it is very hard to follow, and there is a sense of "screw you if you don't get it/can't keep up." Well, sort of - it's not insulting at all to me. It's a challenge. And the reward is a great story with layers on top of layers...it's worth it.

One thing I've really noticed about his work - particularly Seven Soldiers and Batman - is that he writes for the future. There were things that were introduced in the beginnings and middle of his Batman run where no one knew what was going on, and we found out much later. I like that, even though it can be pretty frustrating. I like that sense of knowing what the characters know, and piecing things together and figuring things out with them.

But yeah, you have to invest in his stories. Big time. There are no easy ways about it; no editor's explanation boxes or thought balloons or anything like that telling you to go back to a certain issue or recapping what happened before. You have to read it and re-read it.

I've read his current Batman run in order about 4 times through now and every time it makes more sense and I pick up on new things. I like that. A lot of people won't, and I guess it boils down to that - you have to be willing to invest yourself in a story that tends to be much bigger and multilayered than a lot of stories out there.

There's generally going to be some stuff I don't quite get but I can live with that.

I get to the point in his stories sometimes where I feel like this, but then it really starts to bug me that I'm not getting 100% of the story, and I have to go back and get it until I understand it completely.

Case in point - I feel like I've read and re-read Return of Bruce Wayne #6 500 times trying to understand precisely what is going on with the time sphere (time spheres?) that Batman used/stole/adapted. I just don't get it. But I'll be darned if I'm not going to figure or find out.

 

[E]

I'm re-reading this (Morrison's entire Batman run thus far) for the last time for a while. Return of Bruce Wayne is one of my favorite comics ever. It's incredible.

The ideas are still incredible, but am I the only one who thinks Morrison's writing is becoming progressively shakier? The ideas are expressed, but aren't laced in with the intricacy he's proved himself capable of in the past.

Wow. Couldn't disagree more. A lot of it we didn't get until much later, but the intricacy is AMAZING. It's everywhere throughout his entire run.