ourchair
Well-Known Member
Have you read Ronald D. Moore's thoughts on what he disliked about Voyager?
It pretty much addresses every problem I had with the series.
They give the show a premise with balls --- a great unknown expanse, and pretty much no back up --- and then completely de-ball it by making it a show that desperately wants to be The Next Generation, only with a really good set of actors that technobabbles away any logistic problems that an isolated starship should have.
And then they fight the Borg, and subsequently de-ball that too.
There are still some spectacular moments, but most of those are also achieved by negating any sense of consistent characterization or portraying Janeway as a completely hypocritical waffle.
I can't even understand why I used to love that series.
To be fair, I think some aspects of the writing suffer with regards to plot pacing and antiquated 20th century prejudices. It's little things that I suspect register on an unconscious level, and therefore influence them in a manner as to start poking at the other things that AREN'T the real weaknesses.Gothamite said:
But otherwise, the show still holds up in terms of plotting, characterization and motivation. Also, some of the sociological and philosophical musings are still very strong, but no longer register as strongly as they used to because they're phrased in a way that seems less clever than they actually are or because we take them for granted.
I agree with everything you said, particularly the assessment of those episodes.Bass said:
However, I think the above statement pretty much underscores why people perceive Trek as having aged badly. Everyone goes "hey, where's the adventure we were told was here?"
One of the problems with Trek perception is that way too often people mistake 'adventurism' and swashbuckling' with cool laser fights and action when they're not synonymous with each other. They're looking in the wrong place.
Where Classic Trek is truly adventurist and buckle-swashing is in its poise. How it tackles problems. There's a truly collaborative process in solving problems in which everyone really tries to venture forward the best solution, with very little regard for politics.
The interest in rescuing brilliant minds or befriending new cultures might be construed as politics, but they're really about enriching the collective culture. When people talk about how TOS had very little politics, they're referring to how politics was a abstract presence that existed far and removed from the Enterprise's duties.
Politics still exist, but they exist outside of the confines of the series itself, beyond the margins of an episode. Who knows if the results of their actions, or the brilliant scientist or scrupulous merchant become negated by the politics of decisions made AFTER the events within an episode? Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
The answer to that question is irrelevant.
Irrelevant to the fact that each episode is still The Enterprise reaching for strange worlds (and let's keep them that way)
Irrelevant to the fact that each episode features its crew working towards solutions for perplexing problems.
Irrelevant to the fact that wherever the Enterprise goes, the galaxy is a finer place for it.
That's where Star Trek is adventurous, and where it buckles swashes.
Hellsbuttmonkey
Well-Known Member
That was the one thing that irritated me about Voyager. It totally crippled one of the greatest threats the franchise had ever had in the form of the Borg.
We go back to TNG. The Battle of Wolf 359. ONE CUBE vs 39 starships. The Cube slaughters 11,000 people.
Then we have Voyager taking down cubes and spheres on their own.
We go back to TNG. The Battle of Wolf 359. ONE CUBE vs 39 starships. The Cube slaughters 11,000 people.
Then we have Voyager taking down cubes and spheres on their own.
ourchair
Well-Known Member
Because Janeway is so much more bad-*** than Picard. :crazy:
Stupid and crazy looking for reasons to be stupid and crazy.
Lynx
Well-Known Member
And they tried to cement that fact by making Janeway an Admiral before Picard. That's one of the many, many reasons why Nemesis sucked.
I think Picard might have turned it down that's why he wasn't one , He seems like the kind who rather stay on the ship and explore and be in the action.
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
Exactly and remember Kirk warned him not to accept a promotion in Generations.
By the way, I only realised today that Picard is supposed to be in his sixties from the very first episode of Next Generation. Eew...
Basically, Picard is the same age at the start of TNG as Kirk was when he retired from Starfleet. That's kind of weird.
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Seldes Katne
Site mom
Somewhat to my surprise, I liked DS9 the best out of the post-original series crop. (Conversely, I jumped ship on Enterprise after 3 months.) I remember wondering how they were going to make a Trek series out of DS9 if they weren't on a starship. Obviously, they did it perfectly well. 
One of my big disappointments with Voyager was that at some time during the third or fourth season, it stopped being Star Trek: Voyager and became The Seven of Nine Show. Granted, having a character reconnecting with her humanity after years of being Borg was an interesting premise, but not when it seemed to be the main theme of every third episode.
One of my big disappointments with Voyager was that at some time during the third or fourth season, it stopped being Star Trek: Voyager and became The Seven of Nine Show. Granted, having a character reconnecting with her humanity after years of being Borg was an interesting premise, but not when it seemed to be the main theme of every third episode.
ourchair
Well-Known Member
To be fair, I think people 'misremember' Seasons 4-7 as The Seven of Nine show.
There were a LOT of Seven of Nine episodes, but far less than people seem to remember: 4 in Season 4, since they were balanced out by a lot of Doctor episodes and the odd single episode stuff. Neelix got to ruminate on death and religion in "Mortal Coil". Chakotay got an actual decent episode exploring war psychology in "Nemesis". Torres was persecuted for thoughtcrime in "Random Thoughts"
I think Voyager's real flaw was its inability to actually sell the whole "Lost in Space" premise. Otherwise, it was occasionally thought-provoking, albeit bland and middlebrow. Also, some of those good episodes could've been done with ANY character --- replace Chakotay in "Nemesis" with Kim and the story'd be roughly the same --- and therefore made it obvious that there was no real character growth and development happening across its run.
thee great one
Master of TOG-fu.
Star Trek is for nerds.
And it sucks.
And it sucks.
Not true it sold it better than any other star trek , It had a female captain and since women can't read maps or drive ...... they got lost.
:lol: :lol: Joking
Seldes Katne
Site mom
And perhaps that last statement is one of the reasons people "misremeber" the show. If only one character seems to get any real, on-going development, they're easier to remember. I quit watching Star Trek: Enterprise early in the first season in part because after three months, there were still two characters I couldn't tell apart. I don't know why, either -- they had two different jobs, they really didn't look a lot alike, and one had an accent, but they both just seemed like background furnature. (Can't even remember their names -- I think one was in engineering and the other was in security, or something like that.)
And you watch it in spite of that. Good for you!
*drives to Mole's house and smacks him with her Rand McNally atlas* :wink:
:lol: :lol: with the amount of people on here wishing to kill me , set me on fire , hit me and more , a guy could get paranoid
Bass
Nexus of the World
I haven't. Link please.
The premise for the ENTERPRISE episode, "The Communicator": Reed leaves his Communicator on a pre-warp planet. When caught trying to retrieve it, Archer decides its best not to interferre with the planet's culture so he tells everyone he's a super soldier planning to kill them all. Janeway smiles.
I liked Seven of Nine a great deal. She was actually interesting, played by a good actress, and bloody sexy. I never had any problem with her. One of the best episodes of VOYAGER, one I went out and bought, is "Someone To Watch Over Me" in which the Doctor teachers her how to date. It's not a STAR TREK episode, and really, has no place there. It's rather sappy and stupid - but it's held together by these two characters, blatantly the best characters on the show.
The best episode of the show though is definitely "Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy".
I've said it before and I'll say it again, this site is not only funny, but incredibly astute in bashing ENTERPRISE and the series finale of VOYAGER. Not only is the guy good at pointing out the flaws of the shows, but he's also capable of pointing out the fixes the show could've made.
In his commentary for "Stigma" he has a great idea that not only gives STAR TREK and AIDS story, but does so in a way that it actually puts ENTERPRISE correctly into TREK continuity.
Sufficed to say, I wish this guy had been a producer on that show.
ourchair
Well-Known Member
I'll just email the documents to you.I haven't. Link please.
Dominic Keating sure is sexy in that page.Bass said:
I agree.Bass said:
The problem has never been that Seven of Nine was a crappy character, it's that she was the only one getting ANY character.
Tuvok I understandBass said:
You are a Vulcan man
You have just gone without
For seven years about
Paris please find a way
To load a hypospray
I will give you the sign
Just aim for his behind
Hormones are raging
Synapses flaring
It's so veerrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyy...
Illogical!
Illogical!
Iiiiiiiiiillllogical!
:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
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Bass
Nexus of the World
Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
I think I've only seen two episodes of Enterprise. One when they traveled back in time and one when they were on a planet.
I only know one character's name.
I only know one character's name.
Planet-man
Well-Known Member
I watched Enterprise almost religiously for the first season and fairly regularly after that for the second(only because of hecticness, not a choice to not watch it as often due to a drop in quality or something). I always liked it.
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
I watched most of the fourth season of Enterprise and it was boring and crappy as hell. The finale was pretty fun, but the fans hated it apparently. I liked seeing Riker again.
Lynx
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, I actually thought the third and fourth seasons were a vast improvement over the first two seasons.
