Post-Cataclysm Ultimate Relaunch: All-New...Again

[Zeek]

It was hands down, no questions asked, the WORST USM story.

I actually think that WAR OF THE SYMBIOTES was the worst USM story, and the only one that was outright bad. What a departure from VENOM (one of my favourite Spider-man stories ever).

One of my problems with Bendis' writing is that things just happen without much reason or consequence, and interesting themes are developed but never really explored. Clone Saga was the quintessential example of this.

While I may not hate it, I have no great love for CLONE SAGA; it was probably the period where I anticipated each issue of USM the most month-to-month, but the whole of it is quite lacking, and it's for these reasons exactly. Hell, Jessica's still around, and NOTHING of interest has been done with her! But putting aside nonsense like MJGoblin, what irritates me the most is the whole bit with Richard Parker. The entire 100th issue was spent on him, and then he's just a clone that conveniently hyper-ages and dies at the arc's conclusion. It was a big event that changed almost nothing, save Aunt May knowing Peter's identity.

That said, I don't hate Octomagnetopus at all, and I actually like Gwarnage (well, in theory; again, nothing interesting is ever done with her). I can tell that the first CARNAGE arc probably isn't well-loved around here, but I really like what it does with the concept of Power and Resonsibility and how it extends that concept to Peter's biology. It's certainｌy leagues better than regular Carnage. I kind of wish more of that smaller, personal, thematic stuff was done with USM's "symbiotes", but alas.

 

[Lithium]

Gwarnage. Never forgive. Never forget.

 

[Zombipanda]

Kinda like Geoff Johns writes now, back when he wrote JSA, it was different, he at least gave indications things were progressing somewhere, now its OMG PANDORA, OMG PANDORA'S SKULL!, OMFG CRIME SNDICATE!, OMFFG LEX LUTHRO CAPTAIN COLD IN JSTICE LEAGGUEUE!

Exactly this. Johns and Bendis are similar in a lot of ways.

While I may not hate it, I have no great love for CLONE SAGA; it was probably the period where I anticipated each issue of USM the most month-to-month, but the whole of it is quite lacking, and it's for these reasons exactly. Hell, Jessica's still around, and NOTHING of interest has been done with her! But putting aside nonsense like MJGoblin, what irritates me the most is the whole bit with Richard Parker. The entire 100th issue was spent on him, and then he's just a clone that conveniently hyper-ages and dies at the arc's conclusion. It was a big event that changed almost nothing, save Aunt May knowing Peter's identity.

I liked the Ultimate interpretation of Venom.

But I thought Clone Saga was all wasted potential. It opened up the possibility for all sorts of explorations of nature vs. nurture and body horror (and specifically, questions of sexual identity with Jessica) but never followed through on that. Ditto the implied explanation of the impact genetic engineering would have on the corporate and criminal world. Ditto the Cable story in UXM.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I had no problem with the Carnage arc. The idea of Carnage being a genetic monster that was a combination of the Venom suit and the Parker's DNA was cool, I thought. And I had no problem with Gwen dying that way.

The way they brought her back as a reconstituted carnage clone made no sense, though. They could have said that, in the first steps toward cloning, they experimented with the ideas of Doc Connors and the Parkers by trying to rejuvinate the corpse of Gwen Stacy using reverse-engineered carnage tissue. Although it worked, it left her with carnage side effects - until Venom absorbed them out of her. That's still convoluted. Really, really convoluted. But it makes WAY more sense that the direction they went. "This isn't really Gwen, it's another genetic monstrosity that also happens to be a clone of her. But close enough, right?"

 

[Zeek]

See, I always thought it made sense fine: Carnage was basically a clone to begin with, albeit a "biologically unstable" one that had to feed off of people's energies (or whatever) to stabilize itself. When it didn't, its biology was in flux, hence the Carnage "look". Ben Reilly was working on the CIA clone project and would be most familiar with Connors' techniques for cloning, so it makes sense that these would at least be experimented with and improved on. Thus we have Gwarnage: a clone of Gwen using an improved (but not perfected) method of the the Connors' cloning technique that causes Gwen's biology to go into flux when under extreme stress. That she has the memories of Gwen is internally consistent too - all the clones have genetic memories, even Connors' original (I believe). It's comic-booky as all get out (and there's still the question of "why clone Gwen?"), but none of those are deal-breakers to me.

THEN the WAR OF THE SYMBIOTES arc could have been something more than a muddy, confused, contrived mess of video game reconciliation. It would be a way to explore ideas of identity that the CLONE SAGA never had the time to tackle - Jessica is all about sexual identity, sure, but because she's effectively still her own person, Gwen would be more useful for personal identity. Maybe that lack of personal identity brings her and Eddie together (not romantically, not even in friendship, but of their own unique sort of relationship. Maybe there's an embracing of the monstrous side on his part but a rejection on Gwen's part. The arc could still end with the eradication of the Carnage effect in Gwen, and her return to being a normal person.

So before I start writing a big-ass fanfic for this, my point is that it's really the lack of follow-up that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know that turning Peter's supporting cast into super-powered people is kind of an issue, since it removes the "everyman loser VS anonymous hero" aspects of his character, and in that sense your version is better Cap. But I dunno - if there had been thematic follow-through, it would be as good a way as any to bring back Gwen and could be used as a way to bring together Venom and Carnage (who are otherwise completely dissimilar beings in the UU).

 

[Void.M]

That sounds an awful lot like an assumption.

No, that sound like common sense. Naturally, something happens by the end of Cataclysm to make her decided to join the Ultimates, the preview for issue #4 even shows that she is an important part of Cap's plan to save their world from Galactus. What is an assumption is you assuming it is out of character without having read the whole story.

Ahem. The Jr. Ultimates.

Plus if that's all the book is going to rely on, it's in a lot of trouble.

.

"Ahem", They are THE Ultimates, not "Jr. Ultimates", they are after all the only ones active with the name post-cataclysm.

And obviously that is not the only thing going for it(Infact, the interviews by the writer makeme really look forward to it), but it is something i hope they explore since we haven't seen Jessica reveal who she is to Kitty yet.

I'm assuming you mean the UU, and that right there is a bad assumption. The line is dead. Hardly anyone reads it.

And you'd be surprisingly wrong with how popular Miles is. Again, it's why he'll be on two books.

 

[E]

And you'd be surprisingly wrong with how popular Miles is. Again, it's why he'll be on two books.

When I said that I was talking about the non-USM UU books. USM is very popular, I do know that. But no one is buying, reading, or talking about the other books.

No one cares about a UU book that isn't USM. The rest of the UU is such a drag that I don't believe anyone will care about the new Ultimates regardless of whether or not Miles Morales is part of the book.

Gwarnage. Never forgive. Never forget.

Never.

 

[DIrishB]

No, that sound like common sense. Naturally, something happens by the end of Cataclysm to make her decided to join the Ultimates, the preview for issue #4 even shows that she is an important part of Cap's plan to save their world from Galactus. What is an assumption is you assuming it is out of character without having read the whole story.

Are you kidding me? I already explained exactly why it doesn't work in the post of mine you're selectively quoting from. Yet you apparently refuse to accept that. Whatever, believe what you want, man.

And no matter what happens by the end of Cataclysm, that doesn't address the fact that Kitty could be doing far more for the world at large with the political, social, and diplomatic skills she learned as leader of the mutants than fighting street level bad guys (and let's be honest, none of the Jr Ultimates are on the power level of the original team, so I doubt they'll be facing huge threats like the original team was).

And I seriously doubt Kitty is as instrumental in the plan to beat Galactus as is being made out to be. Her ability to disrupt machinery/technology could work on the Gah Lak Tus drones, but not Galactus himself since he's a cosmic being.

"Ahem", They are THE Ultimates, not "Jr. Ultimates", they are after all the only ones active with the name post-cataclysm. And obviously that is not the only thing going for it(Infact, the interviews by the writer makeme really look forward to it), but it is something i hope they explore since we haven't seen Jessica reveal who she is to Kitty yet. And you'd be surprisingly wrong with how popular Miles is. Again, it's why he'll be on two books.

No one said Miles wasn't popular, it was said the other Ult books are at the point in sales numbers (and have been for awhile) when books in the 616 universe get canceled.

 

[Zombipanda]

And no matter what happens by the end of Cataclysm, that doesn't address the fact that Kitty could be doing far more for the world at large with the political, social, and diplomatic skills she learned as leader of the mutants than fighting street level bad guys (and let's be honest, none of the Jr Ultimates are on the power level of the original team, so I doubt they'll be facing huge threats like the original team was).

I'll settle for a well written book.

 

[DIrishB]

I'll settle for a well written book.

That's all I want. But the only moderately decently written book in the Ultimate universe over the past 5 years has been USM, and that's often been hit or miss (though pretty much the entire Miles Morales run has been good).

I just want Marvel to stop accepting half-assed pitches and scripts to the Ultimate books. Ultimate X-Men and Ultimates have both been severely disappointing for years. Either step it up and do it right or let it die, Marvel.

 

[Drunken Pickle]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=51454

So this article talks about what to expect from the upcoming reboots. Also, the fifth member of the FF is revealed to be a certain goat-legged character.

 

[themightygwynne]

This is interesting. I think I would like the concept of these books if it wernt for the history of the ultimate line. If they were like "magnificent four" or whatever I might be more willing to invest instead of thinking "how long will this ultimate line up last?"