Phoenix: Endsong discussion [Pak/Land] [spoilers]

[iceman]

this is going to sound fanboyish, but i think iceman should have been involved in this story, for numerous reasons.

a.) he's an original x-man. this story revolves around jean, and if the emotional changes in issue 4 stay, this is a pretty big moment, and all the original x-men should be there. angel is, and he's not on the astonishing team.

b.) it takes place in antartica. cyclops would know to bring someone who could tap that with his unlimited potential in order to hold off or stall phoenix.

c.) it involves omega mutants. quentin is back, the shiar are trying to kill him because he is an omega. bobby is an omega. it would add an interesting aspect to the story, where the force might try to take bobby.

 

[Caduceus]

My only issue with that is that it seems to be using the characters involved with Morrison's run and the connections to Phoenix-Emma-Scott. Thats sort of why Rachel doesn't seem to be involved either.

 

[Ice]

My only issue with that is that it seems to be using the characters involved with Morrison's run and the connections to Phoenix-Emma-Scott. Thats sort of why Rachel doesn't seem to be involved either.

I hate to admit, but Cad is right. BUT! I wish for the samething iceman said. That would have been cool.



EDIT: And Oy! Archangel wasn't in Morrison's run! He was on Austen's team, as Iceman was!

 

[Irish_4204]

I'm glad all of you like the mini so far, but for me it's gradually gotten worse. I hate how this mini is more about Scott and Emma's relationship then Jean. I hate that. I also hate the fact about Emma temporarily hosting the phoenix force. Even though she can't contain it (when she said it was burning through her), I still don't like it.

Also, I don't like this retcon that the phoenix force is a seperate entity and can inhabit other beings. I hope it is clarified in the next issue.

I still have some hope for the mini though (the ice cracking, hopefully revealing Jean ready to kick some ***).

Jtg-the sword is probably alot more powerful than it appears. It is Shi'ar technology, you saw how powerful it was in the first issue. Able to pull together the phoenix force.

 

[Ice]

I'm glad all of you like the mini so far, but for me it's gradually gotten worse. I hate how this mini is more about Scott and Emma's relationship then Jean. I hate that. I also hate the fact about Emma temporarily hosting the phoenix force. Even though she can't contain it (when she said it was burning through her), I still don't like it.

I disagree. I don't see it as more about the Scott/Emma relantionship. This really wasn't so much as a Jean story, but a Phoenix one. You know, the entity?

Also, I don't like this retcon that the phoenix force is a seperate entity and can inhabit other beings. I hope it is clarified in the next issue.

What are you talking about? The Phoenix was ALWAYS a seperate entity. It was able to get to be a part of any being, but it needed only ones who were able to contain its power. Jean was one, but not the only one.

I still have some hope for the mini though (the ice cracking, hopefully revealing Jean ready to kick some ***).

Jean is gone again. She was already gone. She was ONLY back due to the Phoenix. With no Phoenix, no Jean. And since the Phoenix left Jean, and Jean stayed under the ice (where you know, you can die if you stay long), she sure as hell ain't coming back.

Jtg-the sword is probably alot more powerful than it appears. It is Shi'ar technology, you saw how powerful it was in the first issue. Able to pull together the phoenix force.

I agree that the sword is something more power than it looks. Even the Shi'ar aren't THAT stupid. But by no means, will it have actually taken down Quentin.

 

[jtg3885]

Jean is gone again. She was already gone. She was ONLY back due to the Phoenix. With no Phoenix, no Jean. And since the Phoenix left Jean, and Jean stayed under the ice (where you know, you can die if you stay long), she sure as hell ain't coming back.

This is the only part I disagree with you about. The Phoenix stashed her under the ice, and then came back to deal with the X-Men and the Shi'ar. Anyone else remembering the original appearance of the Phoenix? Stashing her body in the ocean and forming a fake Jean? This ring a bell for anyone else?

 

[Ice]

This is the only part I disagree with you about. The Phoenix stashed her under the ice, and then came back to deal with the X-Men and the Shi'ar. Anyone else remembering the original appearance of the Phoenix? Stashing her body in the ocean and forming a fake Jean? This ring a bell for anyone else?

Ah, you that is true. BUT! The original Jean was in a stasis pod or something, where she had at least some oxygen supply. Here, she does not.

 

[Irish_4204]

Alright, here's a post from X-fan. I agree with everything she said.

In a way Pak is using Claremont's and Morrison's continuity and in a way his version doesn't really gel with how they defined Jean and her relationship to the Phoenix power at all. Claremont's and Morrison's view of the Phoenix is/was so much better than viewing it as its own entity that can literally replace people. *rolls eyes* hehe. Its better being an innate aspect of Jean and her children and perhaps other special people, as well as being a higher force of destiny.

I'm surprised they referenced that backstory too. After all it shows Jean having the Phoenix in her mind as a child! And the Phoenix was defined as an aspect of Jean's mind. It was this aspect that reached out to Scott and him to her while he was in the orphanage.

Oh well theres still hope as there are little hints here and there that this is a rogue piece of Jean. If Pak has truly read Claremont original story, Classic Backups, and Morrison's New X-Men then I don't see how he could portray Jean and the Phoenix as separate as they seem now or actually believe the stupid retcon about the force replacing her. IMHO.

 

[jtg3885]

In a way Pak is using Claremont's and Morrison's continuity and in a way his version doesn't really gel with how they defined Jean and her relationship to the Phoenix power at all. Claremont's and Morrison's view of the Phoenix is/was so much better than viewing it as its own entity that can literally replace people. *rolls eyes* hehe. Its better being an innate aspect of Jean and her children and perhaps other special people, as well as being a higher force of destiny.

I'm surprised they referenced that backstory too. After all it shows Jean having the Phoenix in her mind as a child! And the Phoenix was defined as an aspect of Jean's mind. It was this aspect that reached out to Scott and him to her while he was in the orphanage.

Oh well theres still hope as there are little hints here and there that this is a rogue piece of Jean. If Pak has truly read Claremont original story, Classic Backups, and Morrison's New X-Men then I don't see how he could portray Jean and the Phoenix as separate as they seem now or actually believe the stupid retcon about the force replacing her. IMHO.

That's why I like the series. I'm a firm believer that the writers shouldn't be allowed to sit there and retcon the material that Marvel decided to print just because they want to do things another way. This is really sorta steamrolling over all the crap that's come up about the Phoenix, and returning it to the days when it was an independent entity, and people were just hosts. No "it's always been a part of Jean", no Jean passing it on to Rachel, none of that crap. Hell, if it was always a part of Jean and/or Rachel, then how did it possess Spider-Man? Or is that part of whatever was wiped out by the retcon after retcon?

Ah, you that is true. BUT! The original Jean was in a stasis pod or something, where she had at least some oxygen supply. Here, she does not.

Ah yes, because of course we've seen Jean's body floating under the ice with no means of life support. How silly of me to have overlooked that. :roll:

 

[Irish_4204]

I can gurantee you Ice that Jean is coming back in the next issue. Why would they show a panel of the ice cracking???? Quentin said that she was dying not dead. She's coming back. Mark my words :twisted: .

 

[Irish_4204]

That's why I like the series. I'm a firm believer that the writers shouldn't be allowed to sit there and retcon the material that Marvel decided to print just because they want to do things another way. This is really sorta steamrolling over all the crap that's come up about the Phoenix, and returning it to the days when it was an independent entity, and people were just hosts. No "it's always been a part of Jean", no Jean passing it on to Rachel, none of that crap. Hell, if it was always a part of Jean and/or Rachel, then how did it possess Spider-Man? Or is that part of whatever was wiped out by the retcon after retcon?

Alright fine Pak has retconed it again for it to be a seperate entity once again. My biggest problem is that Pak said he was getting his material from Claremont and Morrison's views. That's why I'm pissed about it.

 

[Ice]

I can gurantee you Ice that Jean is coming back in the next issue. Why would they show a panel of the ice cracking???? Quentin said that she was dying not dead. She's coming back. Mark my words :twisted: .

Whether she does or does not, she ain't gonna stay. She'll be back, die again. Come back, die again, etc. Honestly, that bit is getting old. So just let her stay dead for once.

 

[Irish_4204]

I'm pretty sure my the end of the mini Jean will be dead and seperated from the phoenix consciouness (it being held in the egg) or losing it's sentience. I hope the the phoenix force is returned to it's original state (no consciouness).

If this mini doesn't end the phoenix craziness, I hope the HoM can deal with it....

Jean will be back in the next issue though.

 

[Ice]

Here's the pic I hope is the one that was asked for:

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I am in love with that costume... dunno why... i don't really want Ms. Frost to be the Pheonix (i also dont want her to become Mrs. Frost-Summers any time soon... but thats for another discussion entirely)

but i do love that costume...

 

[Ice]

I don't think she'll become the Phoenix. She just has it for temporary purposes.