J. Agamemnon
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
nice pun at the end there.
nice pun at the end there.
Original Batman Quadrillogy Discussion Thread
DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
I'm sorry but parts of that movie are just ridiculous. The Joker pulls out a gun, manages to shot the Batplane, and then it crashes. I mean sure realism isn't Burton's strong suit, but come on. There are aspects of the film that are good, like Keaton's performance, but I just don't understand how anyone can say that it's a better MOVIE than the two Nolan made. Maybe it's because I wasn't alive to see it in the theaters, but I do think that a major reason why people seem to like it so much is for nostalgic reasons, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I could be wrong, that's just what I think.
I'm sorry but parts of that movie are just ridiculous. The Joker pulls out a gun, manages to shot the Batplane, and then it crashes. I mean sure realism isn't Burton's strong suit, but come on. There are aspects of the film that are good, like Keaton's performance, but I just don't understand how anyone can say that it's a better MOVIE than the two Nolan made. Maybe it's because I wasn't alive to see it in the theaters, but I do think that a major reason why people seem to like it so much is for nostalgic reasons, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I could be wrong, that's just what I think.
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
Burton's movie was never supposed to be set in the real world. Gotham was supposed to look like 'an attempt to imagine what might have happened to New York City had there been no planning commission and had it been run by pure extortion and crime "As if Hell came sprouting out of the concrete and kept right on growing."
That being said, I understand where you're coming from. I can't understand people saying that Pat Hingle was a better Gordon than Gary Oldman, when he had maybe 15 lines of dialogue over the course of all four of the films. I even have trouble with people who think Keaton was a better Batman.
Burton's movie was never supposed to be set in the real world. Gotham was supposed to look like 'an attempt to imagine what might have happened to New York City had there been no planning commission and had it been run by pure extortion and crime "As if Hell came sprouting out of the concrete and kept right on growing."
That being said, I understand where you're coming from. I can't understand people saying that Pat Hingle was a better Gordon than Gary Oldman, when he had maybe 15 lines of dialogue over the course of all four of the films. I even have trouble with people who think Keaton was a better Batman.
Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
Not every movie is supposed to be realistic. Batman was highly stylized, but I fail to see how that makes it worse than Batman Begins (or even Dark Knight).
I completely hate Batman Begins, but it's not because it's "more realistic" than Batman.
People have different tastes, you can't just write off someone's opinion as "nostalgia" because you disagree with it.
Not every movie is supposed to be realistic. Batman was highly stylized, but I fail to see how that makes it worse than Batman Begins (or even Dark Knight).
I completely hate Batman Begins, but it's not because it's "more realistic" than Batman.
People have different tastes, you can't just write off someone's opinion as "nostalgia" because you disagree with it.
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
Nobody said that.
Nobody said you did.
I'm fairly sure he didn't 'write off' anything, he merely stated that the only way he could understand those opinions in any capacity was to look at them as being opinions founded on nostalgia.
Plus, to be fair, you haven't given any real argument about anything other than "I like [such and such]".
Nobody said that.
Nobody said you did.
I'm fairly sure he didn't 'write off' anything, he merely stated that the only way he could understand those opinions in any capacity was to look at them as being opinions founded on nostalgia.
Plus, to be fair, you haven't given any real argument about anything other than "I like [such and such]".
Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
Well, he did give the example of Joker shooting down the Batplane as being unrealistic and a reason why the movie isn't as good as the Nolan ones.
I'm not arguing that my opinions are more true than anyone else's, I'm just arguing that you can't dismiss someone's opinion as nostalgia simply because you don't understand it.
Using "nostalgia" is dismissive in and of itself, it's saying that the person is blind to the obvious lack of quality in something simply because they have history with it.
Well, he did give the example of Joker shooting down the Batplane as being unrealistic and a reason why the movie isn't as good as the Nolan ones.
I'm not arguing that my opinions are more true than anyone else's, I'm just arguing that you can't dismiss someone's opinion as nostalgia simply because you don't understand it.
Using "nostalgia" is dismissive in and of itself, it's saying that the person is blind to the obvious lack of quality in something simply because they have history with it.
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
He's simply saying that it's a factor, he never outright stated that it was the truth, which is what you accuse him of.
He's simply saying that it's a factor, he never outright stated that it was the truth, which is what you accuse him of.
Planet-man
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
Big post alert trying to respond to a dozen people and sum up all my views here in one post etc.
Apparently you don't know ****, because I've said a dozen times on this board that Batman Returns is a bad movie.
Wrong.
There is that, but that doesn't explain why people who were born after it came out adore it.
But you've also basically just describled what Singer did with Superman Returns, which I thought you loved.
In other words, I don't get you having a problem with the concept of Burton making them excessively personal, instead of just not liking the individual choices he made and liking the ones that Singer made, as a matter of taste.
Seriously. I'd honestly like it to count as flaming because I've seen such a ****load of it on the board lately.
This is, for me, pretty much it.
I don't see how, at all.
Aside from the fact that the movie's not supposed to be realistic at all.... even if it was, why would you pick that one thing to rag on? The grappling gun that can lift 200+ pounds is okay, but the other gun that shoots an exploding bullet isn't? Why?
What it all boils down to personally is that BATMAN '89, for me, is not about the Batman character, or realism, or the 80s-90s zeitgeist, or anything of the sort. I love that film because it is, simply, a work of art, and it speaks to me. It's that kind of film for me. Nothing else matters. The Batwing blowing up the street before being shot down by the Joker revolver is the creshendo in a symphony of pop macabre.
Personally, I don't think it's better, but I do like it more than Dark Knight, and at least as much as Begins.
P.S. If mods eventually feel like deleting all this, could it at least be moved to the "Original Batman Quadrillogy"(which is in the General Movies Discussion Forum for some reason) thread instead?
Big post alert trying to respond to a dozen people and sum up all my views here in one post etc.
Pfft, tell me something we don't know about planet-man.
Apparently you don't know ****, because I've said a dozen times on this board that Batman Returns is a bad movie.
I wouldn't go that far in praising Forever, but it's good. If they didn't have Robin it would have been much better.
After watching Batman 89 the other day I was left wondering why so many people seem to adore it. It felt VERY dated and parts of it were just stupid. My only guess is nostalgia.
Wrong.
There is that, but that doesn't explain why people who were born after it came out adore it.
But you've also basically just describled what Singer did with Superman Returns, which I thought you loved.
In other words, I don't get you having a problem with the concept of Burton making them excessively personal, instead of just not liking the individual choices he made and liking the ones that Singer made, as a matter of taste.
Seriously. I'd honestly like it to count as flaming because I've seen such a ****load of it on the board lately.
This is, for me, pretty much it.
I don't see how, at all.
Aside from the fact that the movie's not supposed to be realistic at all.... even if it was, why would you pick that one thing to rag on? The grappling gun that can lift 200+ pounds is okay, but the other gun that shoots an exploding bullet isn't? Why?
What it all boils down to personally is that BATMAN '89, for me, is not about the Batman character, or realism, or the 80s-90s zeitgeist, or anything of the sort. I love that film because it is, simply, a work of art, and it speaks to me. It's that kind of film for me. Nothing else matters. The Batwing blowing up the street before being shot down by the Joker revolver is the creshendo in a symphony of pop macabre.
Personally, I don't think it's better, but I do like it more than Dark Knight, and at least as much as Begins.
P.S. If mods eventually feel like deleting all this, could it at least be moved to the "Original Batman Quadrillogy"(which is in the General Movies Discussion Forum for some reason) thread instead?
Gothamite
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
I second that. This is all great discussion and it deserves to continue in the correct thread.
I second that. This is all great discussion and it deserves to continue in the correct thread.
DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
I think there is a difference between something being unrealistic and completely absurd. Batman, and all that goes with him, is unrealistic. Yes, he might be the most plausible superhero, but he's still unrealistic. If someone actually did what he did on a nightly basis they would end up dead in a relatively short amount of time. In that sense even the Nolan films are unrealistic though they ground the character in plausibility. I'm not ragging on the movie simply because it's unrealistic or more stylized than Nolan's movies, I'm just saying that there are parts that are pretty ridiculous...to me at least. The part where the Joker shoots down Batman's plane with a revolver is just ridiculous. Even though the film is not supposed to be realistic, it should still act within the laws of what is plausible. A grappling gun that can lift Batman is at least plausible.
Perhaps I was too quick and broad in what I said, but I will maintain that at least a good deal of the appeal of the 89 Batman is nostalgia. The fact that it was the first time a "dark" Batman was presented to a wider audience, or whatever. I'm not even saying that the movie is bad all together. I'm simply saying that I think a lot of its fans tend to gloss over its failures for whatever reason. I've been in arguements with people that criticize the Nolan films for whatever reason but will then argue for the Burton films, though their criticisms apply to the Burton films just as easily.
I think there is a difference between something being unrealistic and completely absurd. Batman, and all that goes with him, is unrealistic. Yes, he might be the most plausible superhero, but he's still unrealistic. If someone actually did what he did on a nightly basis they would end up dead in a relatively short amount of time. In that sense even the Nolan films are unrealistic though they ground the character in plausibility. I'm not ragging on the movie simply because it's unrealistic or more stylized than Nolan's movies, I'm just saying that there are parts that are pretty ridiculous...to me at least. The part where the Joker shoots down Batman's plane with a revolver is just ridiculous. Even though the film is not supposed to be realistic, it should still act within the laws of what is plausible. A grappling gun that can lift Batman is at least plausible.
Perhaps I was too quick and broad in what I said, but I will maintain that at least a good deal of the appeal of the 89 Batman is nostalgia. The fact that it was the first time a "dark" Batman was presented to a wider audience, or whatever. I'm not even saying that the movie is bad all together. I'm simply saying that I think a lot of its fans tend to gloss over its failures for whatever reason. I've been in arguements with people that criticize the Nolan films for whatever reason but will then argue for the Burton films, though their criticisms apply to the Burton films just as easily.
Planet-man
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
I still don't understand why you've drawn the line there. Explain why a big exploding bullet is so much less plausible than a palm-sized grapple gun lifting hundreds of pounds or a plane that barely appears to have any method of flying because it needs to be shaped like the Bat-signal. The movie is a borderline-absurdist work from start to finish. That's it's thing.
And I maintain that you should stop telling people what they actually think and why. The nostalgia thing also doesn't explain why it was literally the most popular movie ever made when it came out.
I still don't understand why you've drawn the line there. Explain why a big exploding bullet is so much less plausible than a palm-sized grapple gun lifting hundreds of pounds or a plane that barely appears to have any method of flying because it needs to be shaped like the Bat-signal. The movie is a borderline-absurdist work from start to finish. That's it's thing.
And I maintain that you should stop telling people what they actually think and why. The nostalgia thing also doesn't explain why it was literally the most popular movie ever made when it came out.
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Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
Yeah, or how you would like it so much when it's as old as you are.
People gloss over the things they don't like about everything. You seem to be arguing that it's objectively not a good movie and the people who think it's good are delusional.
I mean, The Dark Knight is a structural mess as far as storytelling is concerned, but people gloss over that because they like it.
Yeah, or how you would like it so much when it's as old as you are.
People gloss over the things they don't like about everything. You seem to be arguing that it's objectively not a good movie and the people who think it's good are delusional.
I mean, The Dark Knight is a structural mess as far as storytelling is concerned, but people gloss over that because they like it.
DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
Christ.
First off, is it a big exploding bullet? If it is then I missed that. I seem to remember it being fired from a revolver that, granted was maybe three feet long, had a pretty normal barrel diameter. I'm sorry I just don't think that the Joker could shoot the Batplane as it is flying at him nor do I think that even if it hit the plane it would b enough bring the plane down. But maybe I'm getting a bit too hung up on this. I'll assume that the movie is attempting to be a "borderline-absurdist work" as you said. I simply don't really care for that.
Did I ever say that was why you liked it? Did I ever say what you were thinking? No. Simply saying that based upon people I know and have talked to, I think nostalgia is a reason why people that were around when it came out seem to like it so much.
Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that. It's a good movie, but I simply don't think it's comparable to either of the two Nolan films. I'm simply saying that a sense of nostalgia is part of why SOME people seem to like it so much. I'm not even saying that that is bad, or that it means it's a bad movie. Jurassic Park is a good movie, but I can realize that a bit of nostalgia plays into my liking of it. I went down the street to my friends house and played with his dinosaur toys and got Jurassic Park cups from McDonalds...it was the big thing when I was growing up. Naturally I like it a bit more now than I would if say it came out years before I was born. Maybe nostalgia isn't even the right word for what I'm trying to say...more of a great appreciation for it because some people lived through it. I'm not saying that nostalgia is the only reason people like it, or that it has anything to do with why YOU like it. I'm simply saying that based upon a lot of the people I've talked to, in the real world, I think nostalgia has a hand in the view these people have of it. Not that this is a bad thing or should take away anything from the movie, as I have said repeatedly.
And I agree with you about The Dark Knight. The movie is far too long, Mr Reese shouldn't have been in the movie at all, etc.
Christ.
First off, is it a big exploding bullet? If it is then I missed that. I seem to remember it being fired from a revolver that, granted was maybe three feet long, had a pretty normal barrel diameter. I'm sorry I just don't think that the Joker could shoot the Batplane as it is flying at him nor do I think that even if it hit the plane it would b enough bring the plane down. But maybe I'm getting a bit too hung up on this. I'll assume that the movie is attempting to be a "borderline-absurdist work" as you said. I simply don't really care for that.
Did I ever say that was why you liked it? Did I ever say what you were thinking? No. Simply saying that based upon people I know and have talked to, I think nostalgia is a reason why people that were around when it came out seem to like it so much.
Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said that. It's a good movie, but I simply don't think it's comparable to either of the two Nolan films. I'm simply saying that a sense of nostalgia is part of why SOME people seem to like it so much. I'm not even saying that that is bad, or that it means it's a bad movie. Jurassic Park is a good movie, but I can realize that a bit of nostalgia plays into my liking of it. I went down the street to my friends house and played with his dinosaur toys and got Jurassic Park cups from McDonalds...it was the big thing when I was growing up. Naturally I like it a bit more now than I would if say it came out years before I was born. Maybe nostalgia isn't even the right word for what I'm trying to say...more of a great appreciation for it because some people lived through it. I'm not saying that nostalgia is the only reason people like it, or that it has anything to do with why YOU like it. I'm simply saying that based upon a lot of the people I've talked to, in the real world, I think nostalgia has a hand in the view these people have of it. Not that this is a bad thing or should take away anything from the movie, as I have said repeatedly.
And I agree with you about The Dark Knight. The movie is far too long, Mr Reese shouldn't have been in the movie at all, etc.
Planet-man
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
It exploded as soon as it hit, it was fired from a gun.... what would you call it? Hell, it could've been a long, thin missle of some kind. I don't see why this is impossible to get from what they showed.
Why? What are you basing any of this on?
Good. That's fair.
You didn't say you think a few people you know only like it because of nostalgia, you said it was most the appeal of the movie. I took that as meaning "in general/overall".
It exploded as soon as it hit, it was fired from a gun.... what would you call it? Hell, it could've been a long, thin missle of some kind. I don't see why this is impossible to get from what they showed.
Why? What are you basing any of this on?
Good. That's fair.
You didn't say you think a few people you know only like it because of nostalgia, you said it was most the appeal of the movie. I took that as meaning "in general/overall".
Langsta
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
Not to mention, the Joker himself didn't even get hit even while the Batwing was firing a bazillion machine gun rounds straight at him.:lol: I guess Batman's aim just sucks.
Not to mention, the Joker himself didn't even get hit even while the Batwing was firing a bazillion machine gun rounds straight at him.:lol: I guess Batman's aim just sucks.
DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
I always assumed it was just a regular bullet fired from a (more or less) regular gun. Now that you bring it up, I guess it could have been a missile of exploding bullet of some kind, but that idea never entered my mind. Like I said maybe I just got too hung up on this.
I didn't really mean that nostalgia is the entire appeal of the movie, but that the way some people seem to adore it has to do with a bit of nostalgia. While it is a good movie, the way in which some seem to put it on a pedestal is because of some sort of nostalgic view. That's what I meant in my original post.
I always assumed it was just a regular bullet fired from a (more or less) regular gun. Now that you bring it up, I guess it could have been a missile of exploding bullet of some kind, but that idea never entered my mind. Like I said maybe I just got too hung up on this.
I didn't really mean that nostalgia is the entire appeal of the movie, but that the way some people seem to adore it has to do with a bit of nostalgia. While it is a good movie, the way in which some seem to put it on a pedestal is because of some sort of nostalgic view. That's what I meant in my original post.
moonmaster
Without him, all of you would be lost souls roamin
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Re: Worst dialogue in a comic book movie
I disagree that Superman Returns did the exact same thing. If anything, the biggest problem most people had with it is that it devoted itself to a past interpretation of the character rather than making it it's own. The movie definitely had it's problems but I don't think it was the same as Burton's Batmans.
It's not as if I hate Batman 89, there's a lot about it that I like and I wouldn't fault anyone for loving it, it's just Burton's attitude towards the subject that annoys me. The problem, to elaborate, is that Burton seemed to care less about Batman as a character and more as a medium for him to keep exploring the same themes he explores in every one of his movies. That's fine and all, but when you're given the responsibility to make a movie about Batman, you should make it about Batman. The comics are full of a million different unique interpretations of the character but the movies are so few and far between, I just don't think we have time for that kind of thing.
One of the best aspects of Nolan's take on Batman is that - particularly in The Dark Knight - he seems concerned with the layers of ideas and themes that are already inherent in the characters and stories, rather than shoehorning the characters into the kind of story he wants to tell. I think Burton has a hard time understanding that just because he's the director doesn't mean the characters now belong solely to him. (Remember the horror of his possible Superman movie in the 90s...)
Batman 89 was a fine movie, but two Nolan films later, it can sometimes feel a bit like Burton cheated people, seeing now what's possible.
I know I've adamantly defended it in the past, but I'll point out that my opinion of Superman Returns is not what it once was. I don't hate it or anything but I'm not really in love with it either. (The same thing has happened with the Spider-Man movies for me, I've noticed, though to a lesser degree.)
I disagree that Superman Returns did the exact same thing. If anything, the biggest problem most people had with it is that it devoted itself to a past interpretation of the character rather than making it it's own. The movie definitely had it's problems but I don't think it was the same as Burton's Batmans.
It's not as if I hate Batman 89, there's a lot about it that I like and I wouldn't fault anyone for loving it, it's just Burton's attitude towards the subject that annoys me. The problem, to elaborate, is that Burton seemed to care less about Batman as a character and more as a medium for him to keep exploring the same themes he explores in every one of his movies. That's fine and all, but when you're given the responsibility to make a movie about Batman, you should make it about Batman. The comics are full of a million different unique interpretations of the character but the movies are so few and far between, I just don't think we have time for that kind of thing.
One of the best aspects of Nolan's take on Batman is that - particularly in The Dark Knight - he seems concerned with the layers of ideas and themes that are already inherent in the characters and stories, rather than shoehorning the characters into the kind of story he wants to tell. I think Burton has a hard time understanding that just because he's the director doesn't mean the characters now belong solely to him. (Remember the horror of his possible Superman movie in the 90s...)
Batman 89 was a fine movie, but two Nolan films later, it can sometimes feel a bit like Burton cheated people, seeing now what's possible.
Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
I don't know how you can say Batman isn't a Batman movie. It's a Batman movie all over. Where does it diverge from being a Batman movie to being a Burton soapbox, in your opinion?
