Spider-Man One More Day: A Confession

[Captain Canuck]

and really, all Christianity's understanding of the Devil comes from apocryphal literature anyway, so natch

Mostly off topic, but...what's apocryphal about it? The Bible is the best documented ancient text in the history of the world with over 5,000 ancient copies or fragments of copies in existence. In all of these copies and fragments that come from all over the Middle East, only 2% of the content differs. These differences are mostly spelling mistakes and copying errors. You know the game telephone, right? Where you whisper a phrase to one person and they whisper it to someone else, etc and at the end the phrase is nothing like it started out. That happens with historical accounts over time, so it is legitimate to question the authenticity of an ancient writing that has been passed down for years. But imagine instead of whspering the phrase to one person you whispered it to four people, and each of them whispered it to four more, and so on until 5,000 people (or if you want the math to work 4,096 people) had heard the phrase. If one telephone chain produces a completely changed phrase, you would expect this kind of branching to produce many different variations of the phrase - with resulting phrases that came from the same branches to be more similar to each other than phrases that were further away in origin. But what if by the end you had 5,000 phrases that were 98% the same? Its impossible that 5,000 people could change the phrase in almost exactly the same way without talking to each other (and even then they'd probably screw it up). The only other option is that what you have is the original phrase (at least 98% accurate). Scholars who know what they are talking about admit that the Bible we have today is amazingly close to what was originally recorded.

Also, Archeology has continually confirmed historical events/names/places recorded in it, as have ancient secular historians.

The Bible passes all of the tests of historical validity with flying colours. If nothing else, it at least deserves to be respected as a legitimate history of Ancient Israel and of the spread of Christianity in the first century AD. And that's without even acknowledging the possibility that the supernatural exists. If you're willing to even admit that there might be a god, or some higher power out there, then the Bible is the only book in the world with the credentials that warrant objective investigation.

So to say the Bible is literature that, although is often circulated as true, is of doubtful authenticity (which is what "apocryphal means", for any of you who didn't know) is a rather uniformed statement.

 

[Random]

I don't remember Mephisto saying it was about anything to do with God. In fact I remember him saying he just likes tormenting people and this was just one of his ways of doing that.

As I recall Mephisto said something along the lines that their marriage was pure and God favored it, so by breaking up the marriage it's basically a big "**** you god". But that was really a flimsy motivation for him.

I agree with you there. While I don't have much use for religion in real life, I can definitely see its use as a literary device (as long as, well, it's not overly preachy and issue driven), and while I don't normally see a place for that in Spider-Man stories, it certainly could have had one here. Marvel had a unique opportunity in that the story itself becomes wiped from existence. This is one of the few opportunities in the medium of sequential comics to have a definitive ending for a character, one that also allows the company to keep publishing his comics. Marvel has shied away from the whole "Mephisto is the Devil" thing, but I would have liked to see them more fully embrace it for this story. Not a Christian Devil necessarily, but a literary Devil (and really, all Christianity's understanding of the Devil comes from apocryphal literature anyway, so natch), and maybe a manifestation of the divine. But really, the story itself should have been a celebration of the last two decades or so of the comics (That's about how long it's been since the Mary Jane marriage, right?). If they wanted a fresh start, it would have been nice to see a resolution, of Peter's relationship with MJ, with his dead uncle, of Peter coming to terms with himself and his guilt and who he is and why he does what he does. Clear out all the dead skeletons. Tell a story that completes the Spider-Man story of the past fifty years before jumping into the bold new direction. And I think there'd be a much more nuanced layer of irony in the fact that he finally comes to peace with all his guilt, rights himself as a man and reaches inner peace only to have all this undone and forgotten when the deal goes into effect. Call it a baptism, if you really want to get religious with it.

Instead we got what seemed to me to be a very sterile, continuity driven affair.

Here's a thought. Peter Parker makes a deal with the Devil. MJ whispers to Mephisto "Show me what our life would have been like".

I agree, the concept of "Spider-man makes a deal with the devil" just sounds retarded on almost every level. Of course there is always a way to make that work, you had some great ideas. And I recall reading an article trying to decipher Spider-man's religious views and I believe the basic conclusion was "he's christian seems to have belief in god but it's a very small part of his character or who he is" So it would be interesting for him to confront a supernatural entity. But again this story was just Joe Q saying "I don't like the marriage, I'm undoing it" than something with substance. I still maintain the are more brilliant way to undo is and "Spider-man makes a deal with the devil" is probably the dumbest one.

Also annoyed at that Mephisto "isn't good at his job" angle. Everyone who makes a deal with him gets burned and Spider-man doesn't cause of some fluke that a centuries old entity known as the "devil as a laywer" archetype made. It just doesn't work in my view.

 

[Zombipanda]

Mostly off topic, but...what's apocryphal about it? The Bible is the best documented ancient text in the history of the world with over 5,000 ancient copies or fragments of copies in existence. In all of these copies and fragments that come from all over the Middle East, only 2% of the content differs. These differences are mostly spelling mistakes and copying errors. You know the game telephone, right? Where you whisper a phrase to one person and they whisper it to someone else, etc and at the end the phrase is nothing like it started out. That happens with historical accounts over time, so it is legitimate to question the authenticity of an ancient writing that has been passed down for years. But imagine instead of whspering the phrase to one person you whispered it to four people, and each of them whispered it to four more, and so on until 5,000 people (or if you want the math to work 4,096 people) had heard the phrase. If one telephone chain produces a completely changed phrase, you would expect this kind of branching to produce many different variations of the phrase - with resulting phrases that came from the same branches to be more similar to each other than phrases that were further away in origin. But what if by the end you had 5,000 phrases that were 98% the same? Its impossible that 5,000 people could change the phrase in almost exactly the same way without talking to each other (and even then they'd probably screw it up). The only other option is that what you have is the original phrase (at least 98% accurate). Scholars who know what they are talking about admit that the Bible we have today is amazingly close to what was originally recorded.

Also, Archeology has continually confirmed historical events/names/places recorded in it, as have ancient secular historians.

The Bible passes all of the tests of historical validity with flying colours. If nothing else, it at least deserves to be respected as a legitimate history of Ancient Israel and of the spread of Christianity in the first century AD. And that's without even acknowledging the possibility that the supernatural exists. If you're willing to even admit that there might be a god, or some higher power out there, then the Bible is the only book in the world with the credentials that warrant objective investigation.

So to say the Bible is literature that, although is often circulated as true, is of doubtful authenticity (which is what "apocryphal means", for any of you who didn't know) is a rather uniformed statement.

Um... I'm saying that the Devil/Satan rarely appears, and in the biggest instance of a Mephistopheles style wager, the Book of Job, the origins of the character seem to come from an earlier pagan story. I'm just saying that modern perceptions of the Devil are almost entirely derived from literature and traditions that come about after the Bible was written, ie, not a part of Biblical canon. Hence the "apocryphal".

Jeez. :roll:

As I recall Mephisto said something along the lines that their marriage was pure and God favored it, so by breaking up the marriage it's basically a big "**** you god". But that was really a flimsy motivation for him.


I agree, the concept of "Spider-man makes a deal with the devil" just sounds retarded on almost every level. Of course there is always a way to make that work, you had some great ideas. And I recall reading an article trying to decipher Spider-man's religious views and I believe the basic conclusion was "he's christian seems to have belief in god but it's a very small part of his character or who he is" So it would be interesting for him to confront a supernatural entity. But again this story was just Joe Q saying "I don't like the marriage, I'm undoing it" than something with substance. I still maintain the are more brilliant way to undo is and "Spider-man makes a deal with the devil" is probably the dumbest one.

Also annoyed at that Mephisto "isn't good at his job" angle. Everyone who makes a deal with him gets burned and Spider-man doesn't cause of some fluke that a centuries old entity known as the "devil as a laywer" archetype made. It just doesn't work in my view.

That's how I feel about it, yeah. If they're going to do the whole deal with the Devil thing, may as well go whole hog.

 

[E]

I agree, the concept of "Spider-man makes a deal with the devil" just sounds retarded on almost every level.

That's waaaaaaay oversimplifying it.

Mephisto is locked in an eternal struggle with God. He fights it be corrupting God's people. He does this by twisting and destroying good things in peoples' lives, such as love. Especially a deep and pure love like Pete & MJ. He sees what happened with May and that he can jump in and take advantage of the situation, and does.

The story was not about Peter making a deal with the devil. The story was about Peter doing everything he could to save his aunt, including sacrificing his marriage.

 

[Random]

That's waaaaaaay oversimplifying it.

Mephisto is locked in an eternal struggle with God. He fights it be corrupting God's people. He does this by twisting and destroying good things in peoples' lives, such as love. Especially a deep and pure love like Pete & MJ. He sees what happened with May and that he can jump in and take advantage of the situation, and does.

The story was not about Peter making a deal with the devil. The story was about Peter doing everything he could to save his aunt, including sacrificing his marriage.

Spider-man makes a deal with the devil. I don't think I could explain any better how retarded that sounds than just just saying that. Spider-man makes a deal with the devil. Spider-man makes a deal with the devil. As I said, even though the supernatural is out of Spidey's circle but there's ways to make it work to explore these themes with the character of Peter Parker, but in my opinion it was just a shallow plot devise for an editorial change. And just what really pisses my off is that everything good I know that came from is has nothing to do with the marriage just the direction they took on Parker. And honestly I can't look past that, I know it's "about" Peter trying to save May but really is a flimsy excuse so that Peter can make a deal with the devil to only bring about this change in the line. It's just hollow.

Oh and Spider-man makes a deal with the devil!

 

[Captain Canuck]

I'm just saying that modern perceptions of the Devil are almost entirely derived from literature and traditions that come about after the Bible was written, ie, not a part of Biblical canon. Hence the "apocryphal".

Jeez. :roll:

okay, well that's true.

 

[E]

I know it's "about" Peter trying to save May but really is a flimsy excuse so that Peter can make a deal with the devil to only bring about this change in the line. It's just hollow.

Obviously you don't "know" it's "about" Pete trying to save May, because you are so hung up on it that you are continuing to insist that the whole point was to introduce the supernatural and have Peter make a deal with the devil.

Mephisto isn't the devil, by the way. But you can keep insisting that he is so you can keep getting your panties in a bunch.

 

[Captain Canuck]

That's waaaaaaay oversimplifying it.

Mephisto is locked in an eternal struggle with God. He fights it be corrupting God's people. He does this by twisting and destroying good things in peoples' lives, such as love. Especially a deep and pure love like Pete & MJ. He sees what happened with May and that he can jump in and take advantage of the situation, and does.

The story was not about Peter making a deal with the devil. The story was about Peter doing everything he could to save his aunt, including sacrificing his marriage.

Spider-man makes a deal with the devil. I don't think I could explain any better how retarded that sounds than just just saying that. Spider-man makes a deal with the devil. Spider-man makes a deal with the devil. As I said, even though the supernatural is out of Spidey's circle but there's ways to make it work to explore these themes with the character of Peter Parker, but in my opinion it was just a shallow plot devise for an editorial change. And just what really pisses my off is that everything good I know that came from is has nothing to do with the marriage just the direction they took on Parker. And honestly I can't look past that, I know it's "about" Peter trying to save May but really is a flimsy excuse so that Peter can make a deal with the devil to only bring about this change in the line. It's just hollow.

Oh and Spider-man makes a deal with the devil!

Obviously you don't "know" it's "about" Pete trying to save May, because you are so hung up on it that you are continuing to insist that the whole point was to introduce the supernatural and have Peter make a deal with the devil.

Mephisto isn't the devil, by the way. But you can keep insisting that he is so you can keep getting your panties in a bunch.

I think what Random is saying, and i agree, is that the "story" of OMD wasn't much of a story. Joe Q made an editorial decision to get rid of Peter and MJ's marriage for good, so he came up with a story that was not really very well thought through. It paid no homage to Peter and MJ's marriage (which had lasted for over 20 years of publication), it made Peter seem completely selfish (he admitted to MJ that he would be okay with May dying if it hadn't been his fault, but b/c it was his fault he was willing to throw away their marriage to fix it), and it was cliché (Mephisto may not be Satan, but he is Marvel's iconic devil character. His personality, his appearance, his role, his name all evoke Judeo-Christian devil imagery. So yeah, Spider-Man made a deal with the devil, and that's pretty dumb.)

As I said before though, i feel this could have been a better story if it had been tied in with the issues of Sensational Spider-Man the preceded it. The Sensational Spider-Man Annual was a beautiful story about Peter and MJ's relationship and love, and then Sensational SM #40 was a conversation between Peter and God about suffering and good and evil. If Joe Q had tied these issues into OMD and worked a little harder at putting together a good story, the whole thing would have been more tolerable (Although i still would have been pretty upset).

Another idea which has been thrown around before is why didn't Peter just go to Loki, who owed him a favour? Loki could have saved May's life and b/c he's the trickster, he could have done it in a way that also erased the marriage. That would have made more sense and utilized elements of JMS's previous stories.

So as far as i understand Random's rantings correctly, I agree.

 

[Zombipanda]

I think what Random is saying, and i agree, is that the "story" of OMD wasn't much of a story. Joe Q made an editorial decision to get rid of Peter and MJ's marriage for good, so he came up with a story that was not really very well thought through. It paid no homage to Peter and MJ's marriage (which had lasted for over 20 years of publication), it made Peter seem completely selfish (he admitted to MJ that he would be okay with May dying if it hadn't been his fault, but b/c it was his fault he was willing to throw away their marriage to fix it), and it was cliché (Mephisto may not be Satan, but he is Marvel's iconic devil character. His personality, his appearance, his role, his name all evoke Judeo-Christian devil imagery. So yeah, Spider-Man made a deal with the devil, and that's pretty dumb.)

Agreed on the "It's not the Devil" front. He's a red demon dude who makes a living by corrupting souls and making Mephistophelian bargains. He's got beef with god, and he lives in Hell, where he rules over the souls of the damned. Marvel may make it explicitly clear that he's not the Devil, but for all intents, he may as well be.

As I said before though, i feel this could have been a better story if it had been tied in with the issues of Sensational Spider-Man the preceded it. The Sensational Spider-Man Annual was a beautiful story about Peter and MJ's relationship and love, and then Sensational SM #40 was a conversation between Peter and God about suffering and good and evil. If Joe Q had tied these issues into OMD and worked a little harder at putting together a good story, the whole thing would have been more tolerable (Although i still would have been pretty upset).

I'm not sure about that suggestion, but I agree the story should have been a lot more. I don't have any particular attachment to Mary Jane X Peter Parker but the fact that OMD basically wrapped decades worth of stories, the least it could do is provide some resolution. We didn't get anything to that effect.

But that's beside my main point. We're actually getting to what is the root of my problem with the story. I can live with a continuity boot. I can live with Peter making a deal with the Devil. I can live with May's resurrection being the crux of the deal, and even (nay, especially!) the fact that Peter's going to such great lengths because he feels he's to blame. My problem with the story is that it's played straight.

I should probably explain that, but I'm being called away.

 

[Captain Canuck]

My problem with the story is that it's played straight.

you want it to be played homosexually?

:?

 

[E]

This was on Bleeding Cool. Someone noticed that if you buy the last issue of OMD on Comixology you get the HD version and can zoom in nice and tight on MJ's whispered words to Mephisto:

"You will make me remember everything."

 

[Captain Canuck]

:shock: That's potentially huge!

 

[E]

8-O. That's potentially huge!

I was trying to remember how that does or could fit in with what happened since...

 

[Captain Canuck]

It just means that MJ remembers being married.

Right after OMD (I think it was that "paperdoll" story where that person who is paper-thin was trying to kill some celebrity) they showed MJ reading Faust, which is about a man who makes a deal with the devil, as I'm sure you know.

Except it just occurred to me... didn't they reveal in OMiT that she had whispered to Mephisto that she wanted Peter to be happy?

EDIT: in the last issue of the OMD story (ASM #545) the dialogue is as follows:

MJ: The answer is yes you monster!
Mephisto: How...expected. Well, then, we should --
MJ: We're not done yet. You're going to put his life back just as it was. You're going to give him a chance at happiness.
Mephisto: And why should I do that?
MJ: Because of what I can offer you.
Mephisto: And what, pray tell, might that be?
MJ: [whisper]

BUT in the first issue of the OMiT story (ASM #638), they show the same scene with the same dialogue. And they show what MJ whispers:

MJ: I know Peter, he will never make this deal with you, never, ever-- unless I ask him to. But if I do, this is the end of it-- you will leave him alone for the rest of his days.
Mephisto: Agreed. As far as I'm concerned-- this never happened.

So... yeah.

EDIT AGAIN: But all of that is in the article you posted... which I discovered AFTER I pulled out my old issues of ASM...

 

[wyokid]

Re: Spider-Verse (Spider-Man event) November 2014

JMS is hands down my favorite Spider-Man writer after Brian Michael Bendis. I even liked OMD (though not what it did). OMD was a good story about a guy at the end of his ropes trying desperately to save what he loved. It f'd up a lot of crap but it was well written for the most part.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Re: Spider-Verse (Spider-Man event) November 2014

JMS is hands down my favorite Spider-Man writer after Brian Michael Bendis. I even liked OMD (though not what it did). OMD was a good story about a guy at the end of his ropes trying desperately to save what he loved. It f'd up a lot of crap but it was well written for the most part.

I disagree - I'm sure you're shocked by that

OMD was a forced editorial mandate that made no sense and was completely out of character for Peter.

 

[wyokid]

Re: Spider-Verse (Spider-Man event) November 2014

OMD was a forced editorial mandate that made no sense and was completely out of character for Peter.

I agree! It was still well written.

 

[E]

Re: Spider-Verse (Spider-Man event) November 2014

I agree! It was still well written.

I've said this many times before, but I totally agree. It was a great story which unfortunately had idiotic consequences.

I loved Sins Past too. :-D

 

[Zombipanda]

Re: Spider-Verse (Spider-Man event) November 2014

I agree! It was still well written.

I thought it was boring and wincingly self serious, like the majority of JMS' run.

 

[wyokid]

EDIT: Holy crap I didn't even see I posted in this before lol

So...One More Day.

I like it.

I really like it. The more I read it, the more I like it.

Maybe it's the art. I really like the art.

Or maybe It's because of how big the story is and what it means. I'm not sure.

Or maybe I'm being anti-establishment - I like it because everyone else hates it. Like Bass. He does that all the time.

I feel filthy for liking One More Day. But I still like it.

So f all you. I liked Secret Wars too.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE ME.

I hate you all.

I agree with all of this. OMD was an emotional story about a desperate man at the end of his rope and, just as it happens in life, he made the wrong choice. I hate what it's done to Spider-Man (which is part of why Spider-Man isn't as beloved to me as it once was (the other is Sony)), but it could have made a really damn solid What If...? story. OMIT on the other hand is a piece of ****.