Miracleman series discussion (spoilers)

[DIrishB]

Could not agree with you any more than I do right now.

Thanks, I was pretty sure most people reading that would've assumed I pulled that out of my ***.

I'm not even sure what it is yet, I just really enjoy Gaiman's writing style. Its made me want to check out his Sandman run...any other Gaiman related suggestions?

 

[DIrishB]

By the way, this is still killing me:

One question (and I don't care about spoilers, obvious from the asking): Lear is Miraclewoman...but who is Rebbeck?

 

[E]

See, I've found the little bit I've read of it to be very interesting, mainly because Gaiman wasn't really focusing on Miracleman so much as the world around him (as a result of him). This is the stuff I find interesting: Miracleman's "utopian" world and the different views of it (the Bates followers, the regular people, etc).

In fact, in the sense of you not wanting to learn more about Miracleman, Gaiman's run seems almost exactly what you'd want since (at least the first book) focuses on everyone BUT Miracleman.

Regardless, I don't really know what I'm talking about since I've only just begun Gaiman's run, but I just really enjoy his writing style so far (this is the first thing I've ever read of Gaiman's). Its serious and dark, but in a much different vein than Moore's writing style. I guess Gaiman's run is less personal than Moore's since it jumps from character to character, but I feel it gives a better understanding and scope of the world they've created by looking outside of just Miracleman and his immediate supporting cast.

In the end, Moore's is obviously the definitive run, but as said, I think Gaiman deserves some credit for what he brought to the table.

Absolutely. It's a great add-on to Moore's run. I like the direction that it was going in...that the utopian world was anything but, and I am excited to see how, when he is allowed to pick the story back up, that utopian world is challenged.

Anyone who either doesn't read it because it's not Alan Moore or doesn't allow themselves to enjoy it because it's not Alan Moore is really missing out.

And DIB - didn't you at least read 1602? That was was Neil Gaiman. So was the Eternals mini that came out shortly after that.

 

[Jaggyd]

Thanks, I was pretty sure most people reading that would've assumed I pulled that out of my ***.

I'm not even sure what it is yet, I just really enjoy Gaiman's writing style. Its made me want to check out his Sandman run...any other Gaiman related suggestions?

Like E said, 1602 and the Eternals mini. His non comic stuff is great too, American Gods, Anansi Boys, The Graveyard Book, etc.

 

[DIrishB]

Absolutely. It's a great add-on to Moore's run. I like the direction that it was going in...that the utopian world was anything but, and I am excited to see how, when he is allowed to pick the story back up, that utopian world is challenged.

Anyone who either doesn't read it because it's not Alan Moore or doesn't allow themselves to enjoy it because it's not Alan Moore is really missing out.

Exactly.

And DIB - didn't you at least read 1602? That was was Neil Gaiman. So was the Eternals mini that came out shortly after that.

I haven't read those, but I will now. Always wanted to check 1602 out, now I have a reason.

Like E said, 1602 and the Eternals mini. His non comic stuff is great too, American Gods, Anansi Boys, The Graveyard Book, etc.

I'm going to start with his comic stuff, if I enjoy it (which I'm sure I will), I'll definitly check out his novels/prose work. Thanks for the recommendations!




And one more time...who is Rebbeck? You guys are killing me! Damn these several week long ship times from the UK (thats where I've been ordering a lot of the later MM issues from, bit cheaper even with the shipping it seems).

 

[DIrishB]

So onto another Miracleman related question...whats in the future? We know Marvel has the rights now, but I still haven't heard one way or the other if those rights include Moore's and Gaiman's runs, or if it only includes the old (and pointless) Mick Anglo stories of the 50's and 60's. Granted, I think its obvious what most fans want, but will Marvel follow through? Will we get to see Gaiman finish his run, or will be just get some lame Omnibus trades of old Anglo Miracleman/Marvelman stories none of us are interested in anyway?

Would Marvel do something as lame as to announce their acquiring of the rights, but not mention those rights only apply to the old stuff?

I'm on the edge of my seat with this. I've never gotten so into a comic run like I have with this series. Its simply amazing, and I can't thank you all enough (especially Bass) for recommending it. Jesus, its so good!

 

[Bass]

In fact, in the sense of you not wanting to learn more about Miracleman, Gaiman's run seems almost exactly what you'd want since (at least the first book) focuses on everyone BUT Miracleman.

...

In the end, Moore's is obviously the definitive run, but as said, I think Gaiman deserves some credit for what he brought to the table.

But come on, thats no fair comparing Sopranos/Matrix to Gaiman's run. The Matrix? Really?

First, let me clear up that it's not that Gaiman's run is bad or that he deserves no credit or anything like that.

Right, when I meant I don't want to know more about MIRACLEMAN, I kinda mean the entire world of that character, not just him. I don't want to know more about post-Miracleman Earth, really. Much in the same way I don't particularly want to know what post-Hamlet Denmark is like. For me, it's just done.

As for Gaiman's run - yes it was a fine run that he did well, but it adds nothing to the Moore run, and is very forgettable. I can't remember what happens in it, where as Moore's run has burned its way into my brain. I'm not a huge Gaiman fan - it's not that I actively dislike his work, only that it just doesn't connect to me. I didn't care for 1602 or ETERNALS. They were entertaining enough, but not enough for me to return to. A lot of people love Neil Gaiman, but I'm very lukewarm to his writing. Not because of it's flaws, but just because, for some bizarre reason I will probably never understand, it just never grasps me. People continually tell me to read something of his, and I've no doubt its good, but for me, I just never really seem to enjoy it much.

In the case of MIRACLEMAN, I'm glad I'm forgetting it because it doesn't colour my view of the run I love so much. I remember one thing that does happen in Gaiman's run, and I'm happy that it feels so distant it doesn't 'count' for me, not because it's bad, but because... it's hard to explain. Basically, I'm glad I can't remember because that way, for me, MIRACLEMAN isn't incomplete.

Or something.

(That said, Gaiman wrote a short story about a man who wanted to go to space and blamed Miracleman for kinda ruining his life. It was a nice short-story.)

The Sopranos is the most over-rated television show ever. The Matrix should have been a stand-alone movie, not a trilogy.

THE SOPRANOS was deserving of all the praise it ever got... until it hit its sixth season. Then it completely fell apart. But up until that point, it was awesome.

THE MATRIX was supposed to be a trilogy, but when they were told to make one film, they did the 'last' film, which was the whole "finding Neo" thing. Originally, that would've been the third movie. When they got the go ahead for two more, they made up nonsense sequels, when they should've gone back and done their prequels. REVOLUTIONS proved, with the freeway sequence, that a movie about Morpheus and Trinity kicking *** would've just been hella-cool.

I'm on the edge of my seat with this. I've never gotten so into a comic run like I have with this series. Its simply amazing, and I can't thank you all enough (especially Bass) for recommending it. Jesus, its so good!

So glad you like it. It's one of my all-time favourite comics.

 

[DIrishB]

First, let me clear up that it's not that Gaiman's run is bad or that he deserves no credit or anything like that.

Right, when I meant I don't want to know more about MIRACLEMAN, I kinda mean the entire world of that character, not just him. I don't want to know more about post-Miracleman Earth, really. Much in the same way I don't particularly want to know what post-Hamlet Denmark is like. For me, it's just done.

Completely understand where you're coming from. But what I'm liking about Gaiman's run is how it illustrates Miracleman, while more than human, isn't a God...yet. His utopian world is only that on the surface, despite him striving to make it better. I think as part of the development of the character, Gaiman's run is very important (though, again, I do understand your point). All the moreso considering his (unfulfilled) plans for "the Dark Ages" and Miracleman's fall from grace.

As for Gaiman's run - yes it was a fine run that he did well, but it adds nothing to the Moore run, and is very forgettable. I can't remember what happens in it, where as Moore's run has burned its way into my brain. I'm not a huge Gaiman fan - it's not that I actively dislike his work, only that it just doesn't connect to me. I didn't care for 1602 or ETERNALS. They were entertaining enough, but not enough for me to return to. A lot of people love Neil Gaiman, but I'm very lukewarm to his writing. Not because of it's flaws, but just because, for some bizarre reason I will probably never understand, it just never grasps me. People continually tell me to read something of his, and I've no doubt its good, but for me, I just never really seem to enjoy it much.

I get that. See, I'm the same way with Moore. I think it just comes down to personality or simply preference. There's just something about Gaiman's writing style which makes it easy for me to relate to, whereas I'm sure its the same for you with Moore.

THE SOPRANOS was deserving of all the praise it ever got... until it hit its sixth season. Then it completely fell apart. But up until that point, it was awesome.

I lost interest after the first few episodes (though I forced myself through all 6 seasons). Just not my thing.

THE MATRIX was supposed to be a trilogy, but when they were told to make one film, they did the 'last' film, which was the whole "finding Neo" thing. Originally, that would've been the third movie. When they got the go ahead for two more, they made up nonsense sequels, when they should've gone back and done their prequels. REVOLUTIONS proved, with the freeway sequence, that a movie about Morpheus and Trinity kicking *** would've just been hella-cool.

Further proof that Keanu should only come in small doses.

So glad you like it. It's one of my all-time favourite comics.

Mine now, too. Thanks again.

 

[Bass]

I get that. See, I'm the same way with Moore. I think it just comes down to personality or simply preference. There's just something about Gaiman's writing style which makes it easy for me to relate to, whereas I'm sure its the same for you with Moore.

Really? No love for TOM STRONG?

Mine now, too. Thanks again.

Your welcome, I did write it after all. :wink:

(Did I do anything to get a 'thanks'?)

 

[E]

"Moore" good news...

Kurt Amacker: I understand you were informed about the purchase by Marvel by Neil Gaiman's lawyer, right after Comic-Con. Have you heard anything else?

Alan Moore: After being initially informed by Neil's lawyer, I had to think about it for a couple of days. I decided that while I'm very happy for this book to get published—because that means money will finally go to Marvelman's creator, Mick Anglo, and to his wife. Mick is very, very old, and his wife, I believe, is suffering from Alzheimer's. The actual Marvelman story is such a grim and ugly one that I would probably rather that the work was published without my name on it, and that all of the money went to Mick. The decision about my name was largely based upon my history with Marvel—my desire to really have nothing to do with them, and my increasing desire to have nothing to do with the American comics industry. I mean, they're probably are enough books out there with my name on them to keep the comics industry afloat for a little bit longer. I left a message to that effect with Neil. I've since heard back from the lawyer upon another issue, and he said that he was certain that would be the case—that Marvel would accede to my request. That looks like the way it will be emerging. And, Neil will be able to finish his Marvelman story because he has a completely different relationship with Marvel than I have with them—or rather, don't have. The main thing is that I will feel happy to know that Mick Anglo is finally getting the recompense he so richly deserves. And, I will have distanced myself from a lot of the deceit and ugliness that surrounded the relaunching of Marvelman as a character.

Also, from Bleeding Cool:

I have been told that Marvel have come to an understanding with Alan Davis over reprints, and that Marvel have also been talking to Garry Leach, including about rights to the Warpsmiths characters.

 

[DIrishB]

Really? No love for TOM STRONG?

I've never read it, but plan to. Pretty much anything by Moore or Gaiman I haven't read yet is now on my list of "must reads".

Your welcome, I did write it after all. :wink:

(Did I do anything to get a 'thanks'?)

You recommended Miracleman (to us all). Just thanking you for said recommendation.

"Moore" good news...



Also, from Bleeding Cool:

I just creamed my pants.

Especially over this part:

The decision about my name was largely based upon my history with Marvel—my desire to really have nothing to do with them, and my increasing desire to have nothing to do with the American comics industry. I mean, they're probably are enough books out there with my name on them to keep the comics industry afloat for a little bit longer. I left a message to that effect with Neil. I've since heard back from the lawyer upon another issue, and he said that he was certain that would be the case—that Marvel would accede to my request. That looks like the way it will be emerging. And, Neil will be able to finish his Marvelman story because he has a completely different relationship with Marvel than I have with them—or rather, don't have.

So from that I'm guessing Marvel is going to reprint Moore and Gaiman's runs, but just without Moore's name attached--much like they did with the Watchmen movie...er, well, just about any movie based on Moore's work.

And it also appears Gaiman will finally be able to finish his run.

GLORIOUS!!!!

 

[Bass]

I've never read it, but plan to. Pretty much anything by Moore or Gaiman I haven't read yet is now on my list of "must reads".

The ABC line is among my absolute favourite comics ever. What's amazing is that Moor wrote all of it in the course of a few years.

The line had the following titles: TOMORROW STORIES (an anthology of four stories per issue), TOM STRONG (wonderful pulp adventure - the fun, lighter version of PLANETARY), PROMETHEA (a graphic poem of spirituality), TOP 10 (a superhero cop show), and THE LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN (which is probably one of the most beloved comics in the industry). Each one is just wonderfully unique, and unlike the rest, while terrific fun. And one guy wrote them all simultaneously.

Also, there is two 6-issue mini-series called TERRA OBSCURA that put Marvel and DC's big events to shame.

I know some people like SECRET INVASION or FINAL CRISIS or whatever, but they're bull****, and the reason they're bull**** is because of TERRA OBSCURA.

I often point out that the problem with comics like CIVIL WAR is that unless you've been reading all the comics produced by the company for the last two years, it makes no sense or even attempts to make you care about the characters. It's just sloppy, unfocused writing. And the reason for it, so we're told, is the "size of the story is so big we can't contain it within the mini" or something, so we get tie-ins and the start of the story is in one book and another and blah blah blah. It's just as ****ing bad as a ****ty soap opera, mistaking audience habit for audience interest.

TERRA OBSCURA tells the story of a world of superheroes, none of whom you've ever heard of, tells a proper "Cross-over" type story (a mysterious villain is about to dominate the world) with a vast, world-spanning cast of completely varied individuals with rich histories and relationships, and it's not only completely self-contained, but it's engaging, intriguing, and most importantly, uncompromising.

I don't mean "uncompromising" in terms of "OOOH! VIOLENCE!" Because it's not any more violent or sexual or anything than say the latest Marvel event. It's totally PG-13. What I mean is that it tells a FULL story, kills and changes characters, goes further than these events do, and does so in 6 issues with no tie-ins, and no established continuity to build it off.

Neither volume of TERRA OBSCURA is the greatest comic ever written, and both are written by Peter Hogan - Alan Moore only co-plotted them. But they are what Marvel and DC should hope to accomplish with their events and can't. Self-contained stories that work on their own.

The sheer simplicity and low-key nature of TERRA OBSCURA is what makes me so acutely aware of this fact, whereas something as highly vaunted as WATCHMEN does not, despite displaying and executing these principles I mention with far greater competence.

You recommended Miracleman (to us all). Just thanking you for said recommendation.

I did?

Well, then, thank you seems hardly adequate.

KNEEL BEFORE ME.

 

[DIrishB]

The ABC line is among my absolute favourite comics ever. What's amazing is that Moor wrote all of it in the course of a few years.

I'm now kicking myself for having not read through my buddy's collection of ABC's graphic novels (before he sold them all). I know he had several Tom Strong and Promethea tpbs. Didn't know League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was a part of that company. Huh...

I did?

Well, then, thank you seems hardly adequate.

You started the thread. And this thread is now adequate.

 

[DIrishB]

So my Miracleman/Marvelman obsession just keeps growing. I've got almost the entire series except for the insanely expensive issues. I've also been tracking down some of the more obscure Miracleman/Marvelman issues that were never reprinted:

Moore's "Yesterday Gambit" story from Warrior Summer Special which has never been reprinted, and basically takes place during Miracleman #15. Not the greatest of Moore's works, but worth checking out if you're a fan.

Also been tracking down some Warpsmith and Big Ben short stories that've been printed only once, like from the original Marvelman Special #1 (reprinted in America as Miracleman 3D Special #1, with the stories shifted around and the Big Ben story missing entirely), A1 #1 and Axel Pressbutton #2 (both of which feature Warpsmith stories by Gary Leach).

I also snagged copies of Total Eclipse #1-5, which feature Miracleman. Total Eclipse was a big company wide crossover Eclipse did in 1988, and Miracleman shows up in issue #2. The series itself is terrible, and Miracleman isn't a huge part of (thankfully), but Total Eclipse #4 does feature a back-up Miracleman story by Gaiman and Buckingham. In fact, this was their first Miracleman work, since it was done and printed before Miracleman #17 came out. It features a story about the Oakey kid Miracleman encountered in (I think) Miracleman #4 or #5, and his reaction to the battle in London between Miracleman and Kid Miracleman and the coming utopia. It was reprinted in #21 (or #22).

So my Miracleman collection now includes:


Miracleman #1-14, 17-22 (missing #15-16, and #23-24)
Miracleman Family #1-2
Miracleman - Apocrypha #1-3
Miracleman 3D Special #1
Marvelman Special #1 (almost same issue as above, but features the "Big Ben" story that wasn't reprinted)
Total Eclipse #1-5 (features Miracleman and rare back-up MM story)
Warrior Summer Special #4 (features "Yesterday Gambit" story)
A1 #1 (features rare "Warpsmith" story)
Axel Pressbutton #2 (reprints another "Warpsmith" story in color)


Once I take out a second mortgage on my house and manage to pick up issues #15 and #24 (and the other two I need), I also wanted to pick up the book "Kimota!", which delves into the legal battle over the character and his history. The book isn't in print anymore, and it only had a limited production run anyway (ironic considering the same can be said about many later Miracleman issues), but you can find a copy on Ebay for around $20, and its worth it to me, especially since it prints some of the pages and dialogue from Miracleman #25 and Miracleman Triumphant #1. It was released in 2001, and with the recent resolution of the legal battle and Marvel acquiring the rights, it'd be interesting to see if the book might be reprinted (a 2nd edition) with the new info, etc. I doubt it will happen, but it'd be nice.



Damn you Bass for introducing me to this comic book crack of the highest quality!!

 

[Bass]

I am indeed, the Comic Pusher. I'd be on THE WIRE if it were about geeks.

 

[DIrishB]

So a lot of fans prefer the name Marvelman (over Miracleman), but I'm one of the few who prefers Miracleman. I know it doesn't flow as well, but its more in line with what the character is and does during Moore and Gaiman's run on the title: he basically performs miracles. Of course, they could be called marvels, but miracles just seems a more apt description given the religious/era of new gods tone the book has post Moore.

I guess its moot since Marvel now owns the rights and the name will revert back to the original...but I'll miss Miracleman, the bastardization of Marvelman.

 

[Bass]

Miracleman probably works for me better since I originally read it as Miracleman. :/

 

[Random]

Miracleman sounds better. It's much more original, has a great feel it gives the character. But I'd prefer if Marvel intend on using the character for new comics I think they should go with Marvelman just so there's a small distinction between the great work already done and whatever they have plan for his future.

 

[DIrishB]

Miracleman probably works for me better since I originally read it as Miracleman. :/

I'm in the same boat, but some of the old school British fans who read the original stories in Warrior consider it blasphemy. Some people are too touchy.

Miracleman sounds better. It's much more original, has a great feel it gives the character. But I'd prefer if Marvel intend on using the character for new comics I think they should go with Marvelman just so there's a small distinction between the great work already done and whatever they have plan for his future.

No doubt they'll use Marvelman over Miracleman.

I kind of worry whats in store...Gaiman coming back and hopefully Buckingham to at least finish Silver Age (and maybe the Dark Age) seems pretty obvious, but I fear we'll get a bunch of spin-off one-shots or minis done by other writers and artists that will just suck.

 

[E]

It would be stupid to name it Marvelman again. I agree that "Miracleman" is a much better name because it's more descriptive of the character and what he does.

It would be dumb not to piggyback on the previous successes of Moore and Gaiman's.