Millar and McNiven's Nemesis

I thought he had to give up drinking for medical reasons?
 
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McNiven is awesome.
 
E said:
CBR gave issue #1 1 star out of 5 and railed on it pretty bad.
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A few pages have been put on Scans_Daily, and they look pretty bad.
Nemesis captures the President, it look like.
Because, with Norman Osborn being the fascist dictator of everything and Sinestro controlling the entire emotional spectrum, comics didn't have enough unstoppable villain sues.

What really bugs me about this, though (I mean, in addition to the fact that "What if Batman was The Joker" is a stupid premise) is Millar's name being added to the list of writers who are completely incapable of writing sociopathy/psychopathy properly. He might have done a similarly poor job in 'Wanted', actually. I don't know. I didn't read it.

Why is this idea of people suffering from advanced, dangerous psychological disorders walking among us suddenly such a popular storytelling device? Nemesis is just the tip of the iceberg here; sociopaths capable of entirely compartmentalizing their lives are popping up everywhere in popular media, most notably HBO's 'Dexter'. The reason that Batman cannot be the Joker (which, by the way, is NOT a high concept idea, like Millar seems to think it is) is because these personality disorders manifest as uncontrollable aggression. Anyone who's ever bothered to read anything in the 'true crime' genre will know that you can't be a socialite by day and serial killer by night. A basic understanding of abnormal psychology cements it.

It's a superhero comic, though (kinda), so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief when the breaks from reality are acceptable, but if the Scans_Daily pages are any indication, this is just awful. Writing stories with the pitches "What if a teenager tried to be a superhero in the real world?" (Kick-Ass for anyone who is actually unfamiliar) and "What if Bruce Wayne became a supervillain instead of a superhero?" don't inherently make for bad stories, I guess, but it's juxtaposed with Millar writing with the maturity of a prepubescent and these obnoxious advertising campaigns.

"What if Superman crashed in Communist Russia?" worked because there was palpable thought, care and effort behind it. "What if the Avengers were a bunch of maladjusted *******s?" worked too, largely for the same reason. Oh, well. At least McNiven's art is still pretty...
 
I'm torn as to whether I want to read this or not.

On one hand it sounds like an awesome 90-minute movie idea. But on the other hand, the idea of reading a comic book with all the cliffhangers (and you know there's gonna be shipping deplays) this premise sounds boring.
 
Gideon Stargrave said:
Why is this idea of people suffering from advanced, dangerous psychological disorders walking among us suddenly such a popular storytelling device? Nemesis is just the tip of the iceberg here; sociopaths capable of entirely compartmentalizing their lives are popping up everywhere in popular media, most notably HBO's 'Dexter'. The reason that Batman cannot be the Joker (which, by the way, is NOT a high concept idea, like Millar seems to think it is) is because these personality disorders manifest as uncontrollable aggression. Anyone who's ever bothered to read anything in the 'true crime' genre will know that you can't be a socialite by day and serial killer by night. A basic understanding of abnormal psychology cements it.
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Dexter's premise is just too retarded for words. He's a serial killer, but he's the good kind of serial killer! :roll:

The whole "dangerous and unrepentant monster walking amongst us" worked when Bret Eaton Ellis wrote American Psycho, because, well, it was a pretty strong reflection of the yuppie sub-culture of the time, because it was satire, and because he made the character believably despicable. But, well, it just doesn't seem all that great an allegory for our time, and Millar just doesn't really have the subtlety to pull it off.

Osborne in Thunderbolts was fantastic though.
 
I have to read the comic, but it still sounds like a cool and fun premise.

Zombipanda said:
Dexter's premise is just too retarded for words. He's a serial killer, but he's the good kind of serial killer! :roll:
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Not really the point. Also, Dexter is Showtime, not HBO. :)
 
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Zombipanda said:
The whole "dangerous and unrepentant monster walking amongst us" worked when Bret Eaton Ellis wrote American Psycho, because, well, it was a pretty strong reflection of the yuppie sub-culture of the time, because it was satire, and because he made the character believably despicable. But, well, it just doesn't seem all that great an allegory for our time, and Millar just doesn't really have the subtlety to pull it off.
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I haven't read 'American Psycho' (though, I've been meaning to), but as a psychology student the premise is not something that I'm fond of. I understand how this particular character-type could potentially be an effective means of social commentary, but I'd prefer if deranged characters were written within the bounds of psychological reality.

Of course, like I said in my earlier post (be in the case of Ellis or Millar), I'm willing to suspend my disbelief so long as it's intelligent. Or, at least, entertaining. If what I've seen so far is any indication, I sincerely doubt that 'Nemesis' will manage either.

Ice said:
Not really the point. Also, Dexter is Showtime, not HBO. :)
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Whoops. My mistake. The point, though, regardless is that this trope is gaining in popularity and Nemesis is representative of that.
 
Gideon Stargrave said:
What really bugs me about this, though (I mean, in addition to the fact that "What if Batman was The Joker" is a stupid premise) is Millar's name being added to the list of writers who are completely incapable of writing sociopathy/psychopathy properly. He might have done a similarly poor job in 'Wanted', actually. I don't know. I didn't read it.
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It was terrible. A gratuitous, puerile, adolescent fest of swear words and violence without any substance. It was so detestable, I was rooting for the main character (hell, every character) to die. Grossly unlikeable characters.

Ultimate Houde said:
This is what I hate the most about Millar lately. He does nothing but make advertising punchlines for his comics.
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Well, he's always been a hype-master, but it goes deeper than his taglines. Look at his dialogue and story structure: characters spend most of their time telling you and everyone else all the things they're capable of. They do these outrageous, incredulously bombastic things. Then... it's over. Just look at his run on FANTASTIC FOUR or the last volume of THE ULTIMATES to see what I mean. Hype, hype, hype: "This villain can't be stopped, he's too amazing!" for several issues, then, "Pow" he's outta there. Every time.

Zombipanda said:
Dexter's premise is just too retarded for words. He's a serial killer, but he's the good kind of serial killer! :roll:
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DEXTER is a terrific show. I thought that about the premise too. It sounded so poor. And yet, every season is just fantastic. It glorifies serial killers and makes them cuddly, but at the same time, it isn't gratuitous, it's compelling, and it continually points out that Dexter is completely unlike regular serial killers. Every season he squares off against a 'real' serial killer, and the show spends its time having Dexter trying to work out if he's really different from them at all. In other words, it's aware the premise is 'retarded', but continually dramatises it, while somehow, never being emo, or trite, or boring.

Seriously - DEXTER, I hated everything about it. Until I sat down and watched it, and I was hooked from the first episode. It had to work really hard to get me on side, and I'm glad it did. It's one of my favourite shows.

Anyhow, read NEMESIS. Not as bad as I thought. It has all the same shallow dialogue of characters just speaking without sub-text, but, until the idiotic President sequence which kills the book, it set up something really exciting.

The issue starts in Tokyo where Nemesis quite cleverly kills the police chief and causes a lot of destruction simply because he can. The Batman-as-Joker analogue may be shallow and childish, but Millar gives it a good nudge to something unique by making this guy not consider it a joke, nor be a gritty supervillain, but by treating it like a game of cat and mouse. This sadistic bastard hunts police chiefs for the sport. The costume is poor, but on the whole, it was a good, strong opening. Unlike most of Millar's villains, he actually deserves his menace. He earns it. Then the story proper starts in which our new Washington DC based cop, who is this very capable and heroic cop, is told by Nemesis he's coming to get him. Immediately, I am intrigued. I think this could turn out really well. Then, Millar decides to have Nemesis hijack Air Force One and kidnap the President, while piloting Air Force One down main street killing civilians.

That killed the story.

Prior to that moment, Nemesis is a cunning, calculating monster. He's arrogant, and he's allowed to be. He tells people what he's going to do and when, and still does it. And he does it effortlessly. We get how far out of Nemesis' league the police are because he's just so smart. It's no hassle for him. That's why he's looking for sport. That's why he goes around killing police chiefs - he wants to fight a good one. He's interesting in the hunt, not the victory.

But, then, he single-handedly jumps onto Air Force One, mows down hundreds of civilians, destroys buildings, and then puts up a live video feed of him in front of the President. He's no longer cunning or calculating. He's just an swaggering idiot. He's deranged and gratuitous. It is completely out of character. What's more, the police chief seems like small fry. We don't care that he might kill the new police chief's wife because he has the US president at his feet.

The idea is that Nemesis takes on the police force. At the end of the issue, he's taking on the entire US military. The police chief is lost in the scope.

So, the comic is actually interesting and exciting until the last sequence which just destroys all the work. Such a shame.
 
Bass said:
It was terrible. A gratuitous, puerile, adolescent fest of swear words and violence without any substance. It was so detestable, I was rooting for the main character (hell, every character) to die. Grossly unlikeable characters.



Well, he's always been a hype-master, but it goes deeper than his taglines. Look at his dialogue and story structure: characters spend most of their time telling you and everyone else all the things they're capable of. They do these outrageous, incredulously bombastic things. Then... it's over. Just look at his run on FANTASTIC FOUR or the last volume of THE ULTIMATES to see what I mean. Hype, hype, hype: "This villain can't be stopped, he's too amazing!" for several issues, then, "Pow" he's outta there. Every time.



DEXTER is a terrific show. I thought that about the premise too. It sounded so poor. And yet, every season is just fantastic. It glorifies serial killers and makes them cuddly, but at the same time, it isn't gratuitous, it's compelling, and it continually points out that Dexter is completely unlike regular serial killers. Every season he squares off against a 'real' serial killer, and the show spends its time having Dexter trying to work out if he's really different from them at all. In other words, it's aware the premise is 'retarded', but continually dramatises it, while somehow, never being emo, or trite, or boring.

Seriously - DEXTER, I hated everything about it. Until I sat down and watched it, and I was hooked from the first episode. It had to work really hard to get me on side, and I'm glad it did. It's one of my favourite shows.

Anyhow, read NEMESIS. Not as bad as I thought. It has all the same shallow dialogue of characters just speaking without sub-text, but, until the idiotic President sequence which kills the book, it set up something really exciting.

The issue starts in Tokyo where Nemesis quite cleverly kills the police chief and causes a lot of destruction simply because he can. The Batman-as-Joker analogue may be shallow and childish, but Millar gives it a good nudge to something unique by making this guy not consider it a joke, nor be a gritty supervillain, but by treating it like a game of cat and mouse. This sadistic bastard hunts police chiefs for the sport. The costume is poor, but on the whole, it was a good, strong opening. Unlike most of Millar's villains, he actually deserves his menace. He earns it. Then the story proper starts in which our new Washington DC based cop, who is this very capable and heroic cop, is told by Nemesis he's coming to get him. Immediately, I am intrigued. I think this could turn out really well. Then, Millar decides to have Nemesis hijack Air Force One and kidnap the President, while piloting Air Force One down main street killing civilians.

That killed the story.

Prior to that moment, Nemesis is a cunning, calculating monster. He's arrogant, and he's allowed to be. He tells people what he's going to do and when, and still does it. And he does it effortlessly. We get how far out of Nemesis' league the police are because he's just so smart. It's no hassle for him. That's why he's looking for sport. That's why he goes around killing police chiefs - he wants to fight a good one. He's interesting in the hunt, not the victory.

But, then, he single-handedly jumps onto Air Force One, mows down hundreds of civilians, destroys buildings, and then puts up a live video feed of him in front of the President. He's no longer cunning or calculating. He's just an swaggering idiot. He's deranged and gratuitous. It is completely out of character. What's more, the police chief seems like small fry. We don't care that he might kill the new police chief's wife because he has the US president at his feet.

The idea is that Nemesis takes on the police force. At the end of the issue, he's taking on the entire US military. The police chief is lost in the scope.

So, the comic is actually interesting and exciting until the last sequence which just destroys all the work. Such a shame.
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I haven't read it but after this post it seems pretty good, just the whole air force one thing rushed to soon. It's something you build to. Escalation and all that. As Bass point you don't care about small fries like a police chief once you jump to the president. It would have be a great ending for the first arc or two. Like the story hints at a big plan during the cat and mouse game and then reveals itself in a holy **** moment. And if you laid bread crumbs for that big plan even better. Just poor pacing, too much too fast.
 
Gideon Stargrave said:
I haven't read 'American Psycho' (though, I've been meaning to), but as a psychology student the premise is not something that I'm fond of. I understand how this particular character-type could potentially be an effective means of social commentary, but I'd prefer if deranged characters were written within the bounds of psychological reality.
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;) Might I suggest you read literature as a literary student instead of as a psychology student?

FWIW, I don't think you'll have to stretch credibility too much to enjoy AP. It's satire, sure, and as such, it has a tendency to drift into hyperbole, but the character is not nearly so suave and unassumingly intellectual as, say, Hannibal Lecter. He's instead, rather capable of fitting into a specific sub-culture, that of the trust fund yuppie, a sub-culture which is steeped in objectification, materialism, and shallowness. Eaton isn't writing a character who's "charming playboy by day/serial killer by night" so much as he's pointing out a value system that breeds hollow sociopathy, and despite his sort of literary bravado (something that ocassionally irks me in both Eaton and Palahniuk's writing, and which Millar always seems to be mimicking to me), I think he does a pretty good job of it.

Bass said:
DEXTER is a terrific show. I thought that about the premise too. It sounded so poor. And yet, every season is just fantastic. It glorifies serial killers and makes them cuddly, but at the same time, it isn't gratuitous, it's compelling, and it continually points out that Dexter is completely unlike regular serial killers. Every season he squares off against a 'real' serial killer, and the show spends its time having Dexter trying to work out if he's really different from them at all. In other words, it's aware the premise is 'retarded', but continually dramatises it, while somehow, never being emo, or trite, or boring.
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Eh. Without getting into specifics, I've watched the first season of the show and while it was poppy and entertaining enough when I was sitting there with a boxed set and a lot of free time, I honestly haven't felt compelled to go searching down the later seasons.
 
I'm surprised. I thought the ending of the first season was exceptionally brilliant. The other seasons are also brilliant, but the first, I think, is the best, the second the weakest. But even it's weakest is pretty damn fine television.
 
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#2 was ridiculous and I loved it.
 
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