Marvel's Top ten Ultimate Villain List

[The Overlord]

No, what makes Doom better than the Wizard is that his smug sense of self-superiority is better developed, and the fact that for all intents and purposes, he may actually BE the superior or equal of Richards.

Not his epic origin. It's definitely a plus though.

Also, I'm not suggesting that Ultimate Doom is awesome because he is an abused psychopath, but that he's actually a well-developed psychopath (yes, I deliberately removed abused) whose psychosis is driven primarily by his ego NOT by abuse.

Meh, again its not only that Ultimate doom's origin is less epic then 616 Doom, but that Ultimate Doom is less epic then 616 Doom peroid. Like I said hanging around with hippies would beneath the 616 Doom.

Sure doom had some magnificent bastard moments in his second arc, but at that point he was clone of the 616 Doom. When Ellis was writing Doom he didn't seem like much of a magnificent bastard. IMO Ultimate doom is inferior to 616 Doom.

Now one can argue that Doom's first silver age story was pretty silly and that's true, but after 40 years, the UU writers have the benefit of hindsight and there is no way you were going top improve on 616 Doom at this point, he didn't really need any improvement or updating.

I think the list marvel provided isn't bad simply because the level of villainy in the UU is really pathetic. They have hardly taken B-list or c-list characters and tried to improve them.

One Ultimate villain I like is ultimate Leader, I think he has better mythos then 616 Leader (though he had his moments) and is superior character, but then they killed him off right away. Sure that's more realistic, but it isn't good story telling. The writers have got to do a better of job improving B-list characters, instead of trying to change the A-list villains, they aren't broke, so don't fix them.

 

[Goodwill]

How can you even put Ultimate Doom up against 616 when you want to compare who is more epic? 616 has had how many years of continuity built on top of him to achieve his iconic status? The UU is just an impression of what the 616 characters have done before them. It's a breath of fresh air and an opportunity to make the characters different, but you can't compare them like that.

 

[ourchair]

Meh, again its not only that Ultimate doom's origin is less epic then 616 Doom, but that Ultimate Doom is less epic then 616 Doom peroid. Like I said hanging around with hippies would beneath the 616 Doom.

Sure doom had some magnificent bastard moments in his second arc, but at that point he was clone of the 616 Doom. When Ellis was writing Doom he didn't seem like much of a magnificent bastard. IMO Ultimate doom is inferior to 616 Doom.

Please define magnificent bastard for me. I am at a loss to what you are talking about. Also, define epic.

I mean okay, I know what an epic origin is. An epic background or an epic character arc. But what exactly makes a person epic? I mean I have an epic jawline, does that make me an epic person? Or is it my epic ancestry that makes me epic?

Now one can argue that Doom's first silver age story was pretty silly and that's true, but after 40 years, the UU writers have the benefit of hindsight and there is no way you were going top improve on 616 Doom at this point, he didn't really need any improvement or updating.

The reason why Doom has such a place of stature in the Marvel Universe is because he's been behind the most awesome bouts for power, not because he has a better origin which is basically really a mouthful:

"So my parents were gypsies and they were persecuted and then my mom went to Hell cause she's a witch and she did nasty witchy things and so I went to college and tried to contact her with a Hereafter Telephony Service Machine but it blew up in my face and I'm pretty sure my old college physics classmate is behind it, so I went to Tibet and got a bunch of monks to make me an armor then I installed rocket boots, laser guns and a self-emptying catheter and now I'm gonna pick on that classmate and his family for the rest of my life, and I'll do it while occasionally being paid to make random guest appearances to boost the sales of other books featuring lesser characters so as to prevent their cancellation."​

How does that prove that 616 Doom is 'better' than Ultimate Doom. Now hold on, I'm not saying 616 Doom is NOT better than Ultimate Doom, but rather for the purposes of this inquiry, I am presuming that he IS, and am asking how does that mouthful of an origin come define the magnitude of his awesomeness in such a fashion that he exceeds the Ultimate Doom. If you can somehow prove that that origin is crucial to his awesomeness, he automatically IS better than Ultimate Doom (because Ultimate Doom doesn't have that origin).

You sure there isn't some other kick *** aspect of Doom that makes him better than Ultimate Doom? Like say, shredding the skin of his dead lover? Being so resilient as to come back from space, hell, time, death, etc? Going to the Marvel offices so he could ask Stan Lee and Jack Kirby to get him to meet with the Fantastic Four? Being really really nuts as to burn his mug further by putting a hot metal faceplate to it? Take your pick, there are so many things that separate him from Ultimate Doom, that I think it's just plain cheap and lazy thinking to believe that a 'bigger' origin and a larger history that make 616 Doom better.

In any case, I tend to think of the Ultimate characters as merely extensions of their 616 counterparts. Especially when it comes to the Fantastic Four. They're not saying the Fantastic Four are broken, or outdated. They're just versions free of the continuity baggage of their 40 year old counterparts, and even if you don't consider continuity to be baggage, then they are incarnations who have effectively been given a second look of how they would be put together without tampering their core essence, much like how a good movie would adapt an existing work of fiction from another medium.

I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to spout objectivist propaganda, but allow me to paraphrase the Question paraphrasing the law of identity as expressed in Randian Objectivist terms:

"Everything that exists has a specific nature, and possesses characteristics that are a part of what it is. A is A... And no matter what reality he calls home, Doom is Doom."​

Ultimate Doom isn't 'better' than 616 Doom nor is he even supposed to try to define his worth by how he rates to 616 Doom, because he IS 616 Doom, his entire ******* attitude, imperious self-image, delusional sense of perfection all balled up into a single life-force hurtled across time and space to become Ultimatized and be unfortunately named Van Damme.

Ultimate Doom is awesome and one of the greatest Ultimate villains (though I'm less certain as to whether he is the greatest Ultimate villain) ever because he's that awesome villain from another reality but in the Ultimate reality.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I really like Kingpin
and Vaughn's Sinister (not so much Kirman's)
and Wraith/Weapon X in general
Loki
Magneto
Hammerhead
Elektra
Doc Ock
Norman Osborn
and the Frightful Four (they are really the only UFF villians that are actually pretty scary)

 

[SSJmole]

Cool list. I love Ultimate green Goblin I really do. Reading it not knowing what would happen and he turned in to a big bad *** monster goblin was just so very cool. Plus has Spider-man ever beat him? (not read after clone saga can't be sure) but first time Police helicopters saved spidey , Harry another time saved spidey and the Ultimates had to save him another time. That's great.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Cool list. I love Ultimate green Goblin I really do. Reading it not knowing what would happen and he turned in to a big bad *** monster goblin was just so very cool. Plus has Spider-man ever beat him? (not read after clone saga can't be sure) but first time Police helicopters saved spidey , Harry another time saved spidey and the Ultimates had to save him another time. That's great.

nope, he doesn't beat him in death of a goblin either

 

[SSJmole]

nope, he doesn't beat him in death of a goblin either

Ah cool so he's undefeated by spider-man, How many villains (of spider-man) can actually say that?

 

[Random]

Ah cool so he's undefeated by spider-man, How many villains (of spider-man) can actually say that?

I can't remember the last time Ultimate Spider-man defeated a villain. He always gets saved by someone else

 

[SSJmole]

I can't remember the last time Ultimate Spider-man defeated a villain. He always gets saved by someone else

:lol: True but his main villains he beat at least once.

 

[The Overlord]

Please define magnificent bastard for me. I am at a loss to what you are talking about. Also, define epic.

I mean okay, I know what an epic origin is. An epic background or an epic character arc. But what exactly makes a person epic? I mean I have an epic jawline, does that make me an epic person? Or is it my epic ancestry that makes me epic?

Didn't you read the page i provided for on tv tropes?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard

Let's compare feats shall and earlier feats so I won't go into anything recent, to be fair:


In his first couple appearances 616 Doom: stole silver surfer powers, nearly killed Spider-man (who only survived because the FF got involved) and there was the time he fought overmind who defeated the Reed richards and was able to withstand the overmind's massive mental attacks for a time. That's just his first couple of feats.

All of that is way cooler then starting a hippie camp. Its matter of feats 616 Doom did way more impressive things. Sure doom's first story was kinda goofy, but he hit the ground running pretty quickly and since the UU had the benefit of hindsight and 40 years of Doom stories to use as a reference, Ultimate doom being just a bum is pretty disappointing.

The reason why Doom has such a place of stature in the Marvel Universe is because he's been behind the most awesome bouts for power, not because he has a better origin which is basically really a mouthful:

"So my parents were gypsies and they were persecuted and then my mom went to Hell cause she's a witch and she did nasty witchy things and so I went to college and tried to contact her with a Hereafter Telephony Service Machine but it blew up in my face and I'm pretty sure my old college physics classmate is behind it, so I went to Tibet and got a bunch of monks to make me an armor then I installed rocket boots, laser guns and a self-emptying catheter and now I'm gonna pick on that classmate and his family for the rest of my life, and I'll do it while occasionally being paid to make random guest appearances to boost the sales of other books featuring lesser characters so as to prevent their cancellation."​

How does that prove that 616 Doom is 'better' than Ultimate Doom. Now hold on, I'm not saying 616 Doom is NOT better than Ultimate Doom, but rather for the purposes of this inquiry, I am presuming that he IS, and am asking how does that mouthful of an origin come define the magnitude of his awesomeness in such a fashion that he exceeds the Ultimate Doom. If you can somehow prove that that origin is crucial to his awesomeness, he automatically IS better than Ultimate Doom (because Ultimate Doom doesn't have that origin).

Well read Brubaker's Book of Doom and tell me if its better or worse then ultimate doom's origin.

You sure there isn't some other kick *** aspect of Doom that makes him better than Ultimate Doom? Like say, shredding the skin of his dead lover? Being so resilient as to come back from space, hell, time, death, etc? Going to the Marvel offices so he could ask Stan Lee and Jack Kirby to get him to meet with the Fantastic Four? Being really really nuts as to burn his mug further by putting a hot metal faceplate to it? Take your pick, there are so many things that separate him from Ultimate Doom, that I think it's just plain cheap and lazy thinking to believe that a 'bigger' origin and a larger history that make 616 Doom better.

I never said its just 616 doom's origin that was better, that and all the stuff you mentioned, plus a bunch of stuff you didn't mention, the origin is just aspect of that. Ultimate Doom is pretty disappointing compared to 616 doom

In any case, I tend to think of the Ultimate characters as merely extensions of their 616 counterparts. Especially when it comes to the Fantastic Four. They're not saying the Fantastic Four are broken, or outdated. They're just versions free of the continuity baggage of their 40 year old counterparts, and even if you don't consider continuity to be baggage, then they are incarnations who have effectively been given a second look of how they would be put together without tampering their core essence, much like how a good movie would adapt an existing work of fiction from another medium.

I don't think adding goat legs or having him hanging out with hippies is getting to the core of the character, that's just changing things for the sake of changing things.

I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to spout objectivist propaganda, but allow me to paraphrase the Question paraphrasing the law of identity as expressed in Randian Objectivist terms:

"Everything that exists has a specific nature, and possesses characteristics that are a part of what it is. A is A... And no matter what reality he calls home, Doom is Doom."​

Ultimate Doom isn't 'better' than 616 Doom nor is he even supposed to try to define his worth by how he rates to 616 Doom, because he IS 616 Doom, his entire ******* attitude, imperious self-image, delusional sense of perfection all balled up into a single life-force hurtled across time and space to become Ultimatized and be unfortunately named Van Damme.

I disagree, there were a lot of aspects of Doom, 616 doom wouldn't hang out with hippies, wouldn't use PS controllers to build devices and wouldn't spit slime at people out of his mouth. He has way class then ultimate Doom, there is more to Doom then just ego and competitive streak. Is taste in the finer things no longer relevant. 616 Doom is far better Evil Overlord villain then Ultimate doom.

How many evil overlords plan their schemes from shanty towns? Would Vader still be as scary if he was in some hippie compound instead of the death star?

Ultimate Doom is awesome and one of the greatest Ultimate villains (though I'm less certain as to whether he is the greatest Ultimate villain) ever because he's that awesome villain from another reality but in the Ultimate reality.

I disagree, I couldn't take him seriously after the hippie compound thing.

Cool list. I love Ultimate green Goblin I really do. Reading it not knowing what would happen and he turned in to a big bad *** monster goblin was just so very cool. Plus has Spider-man ever beat him? (not read after clone saga can't be sure) but first time Police helicopters saved spidey , Harry another time saved spidey and the Ultimates had to save him another time. That's great.

He's alright, I really liked his last story, but I never liked the whole transforming into a goblin thing, that's way less realisitc then a nut in a costume. Plus i think its kinda sad for spidey always to get bailed out by someone else.

Sure ultimate Gobby has a good psychopathic personality, but so does 616 Gobby. Ultimately though I think 616 Spidey's rogues gallery is way better then ultimate Spidey's. I wonder why ultimate Kraven is the on the list 616 Kraven is way better, at least he got to go out a on bang.

 

[The Overlord]

Please define magnificent bastard for me. I am at a loss to what you are talking about. Also, define epic.

I mean okay, I know what an epic origin is. An epic background or an epic character arc. But what exactly makes a person epic? I mean I have an epic jawline, does that make me an epic person? Or is it my epic ancestry that makes me epic?

Didn't you read the page i provided for on tv tropes?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard

Let's compare feats shall and earlier feats so I won't go into anything recent, to be fair:


In his first couple appearances 616 Doom: stole silver surfer powers, nearly killed Spider-man (who only survived because the FF got involved) and there was the time he fought overmind who defeated the Reed richards and was able to withstand the overmind's massive mental attacks for a time. That's just his first couple of feats.

All of that is way cooler then starting a hippie camp. Its matter of feats 616 Doom did way more impressive things. Sure doom's first story was kinda goofy, but he hit the ground running pretty quickly and since the UU had the benefit of hindsight and 40 years of Doom stories to use as a reference, Ultimate doom being just a bum is pretty disappointing.

The reason why Doom has such a place of stature in the Marvel Universe is because he's been behind the most awesome bouts for power, not because he has a better origin which is basically really a mouthful:

"So my parents were gypsies and they were persecuted and then my mom went to Hell cause she's a witch and she did nasty witchy things and so I went to college and tried to contact her with a Hereafter Telephony Service Machine but it blew up in my face and I'm pretty sure my old college physics classmate is behind it, so I went to Tibet and got a bunch of monks to make me an armor then I installed rocket boots, laser guns and a self-emptying catheter and now I'm gonna pick on that classmate and his family for the rest of my life, and I'll do it while occasionally being paid to make random guest appearances to boost the sales of other books featuring lesser characters so as to prevent their cancellation."​

How does that prove that 616 Doom is 'better' than Ultimate Doom. Now hold on, I'm not saying 616 Doom is NOT better than Ultimate Doom, but rather for the purposes of this inquiry, I am presuming that he IS, and am asking how does that mouthful of an origin come define the magnitude of his awesomeness in such a fashion that he exceeds the Ultimate Doom. If you can somehow prove that that origin is crucial to his awesomeness, he automatically IS better than Ultimate Doom (because Ultimate Doom doesn't have that origin).

Well read Brubaker's Book of Doom and tell me if its better or worse then ultimate doom's origin.

You sure there isn't some other kick *** aspect of Doom that makes him better than Ultimate Doom? Like say, shredding the skin of his dead lover? Being so resilient as to come back from space, hell, time, death, etc? Going to the Marvel offices so he could ask Stan Lee and Jack Kirby to get him to meet with the Fantastic Four? Being really really nuts as to burn his mug further by putting a hot metal faceplate to it? Take your pick, there are so many things that separate him from Ultimate Doom, that I think it's just plain cheap and lazy thinking to believe that a 'bigger' origin and a larger history that make 616 Doom better.

I never said its just 616 doom's origin that was better, that and some the stuff you mentioned, plus a bunch of stuff you didn't mention, the origin is just aspect of that. Ultimate Doom is pretty disappointing compared to 616 doom

In any case, I tend to think of the Ultimate characters as merely extensions of their 616 counterparts. Especially when it comes to the Fantastic Four. They're not saying the Fantastic Four are broken, or outdated. They're just versions free of the continuity baggage of their 40 year old counterparts, and even if you don't consider continuity to be baggage, then they are incarnations who have effectively been given a second look of how they would be put together without tampering their core essence, much like how a good movie would adapt an existing work of fiction from another medium.

I don't think adding goat legs or having him hanging out with hippies is getting to the core of the character, that's just changing things for the sake of changing things.

I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to spout objectivist propaganda, but allow me to paraphrase the Question paraphrasing the law of identity as expressed in Randian Objectivist terms:

"Everything that exists has a specific nature, and possesses characteristics that are a part of what it is. A is A... And no matter what reality he calls home, Doom is Doom."​

Ultimate Doom isn't 'better' than 616 Doom nor is he even supposed to try to define his worth by how he rates to 616 Doom, because he IS 616 Doom, his entire ******* attitude, imperious self-image, delusional sense of perfection all balled up into a single life-force hurtled across time and space to become Ultimatized and be unfortunately named Van Damme.

I disagree, there were a lot of aspects of Doom, 616 doom wouldn't hang out with hippies, wouldn't use PS controllers to build devices and wouldn't spit slime at people out of his mouth. He has way class then ultimate Doom, there is more to Doom then just ego and competitive streak. Is taste in the finer things no longer relevant. 616 Doom is far better Evil Overlord villain then Ultimate doom.

How many evil overlords plan their schemes from shanty towns? Would Vader still be as scary if he was in some hippie compound instead of the death star?

Ultimate Doom is awesome and one of the greatest Ultimate villains (though I'm less certain as to whether he is the greatest Ultimate villain) ever because he's that awesome villain from another reality but in the Ultimate reality.

I disagree, I couldn't take him seriously after the hippie compound thing.

 

[UltimatePower]

Kraven made the list. :roll:

This is just wrong!:shock: