Literary Elitism

[moonmaster]

I think we can always blame the 90s, for everything.

 

[Jaggyd]

 

[E]

I hate to get all Ellis but unlike Japan, the majority of American comics belong to one very specific genre that up until about 30 years ago was written almost exclusively for children. For every Watchmen there are a hundred bland superhero books that don't do much to advance the art form.

I was about to say, in all seriousness, that Japan doesn't have Jeph Loeb...but ^ that's pretty much what I would have meant.

Not to beat a dead horse, but when we get stuff like Ultimatum and Ultimates 3, it's hard to defend comics against that kind of criticism.

 

[compound]

For every Watchmen there are a hundred bland superhero books that don't do much to advance the art form.

Not to beat a dead horse, but when we get stuff like Ultimatum and Ultimates 3, it's hard to defend comics against that kind of criticism.

With all due respect to you both, I think harping on Loeb misses the larger problem. It's the superhero hegemony itself that gives comics a negative reputation as a medium, regardless of the artistic merits of the work produced. The Loebs and the Liefelds just make the situation more difficult.

Case in point: I actually *like* superheroes AND zombies. But i'll always pick The Walking Dead over Marvel Zombies or Blackest Night, because I don't necessarily care to read about zombies in the superhero context. That doesn't mean either MZ or Blackest Night are without value (in terms of narrative, or design, or aesthetics). It doesn't even mean they're "bland". But the fact is, they appeal to a very specific readership that may not overlap with what the vast majority of the reading public is interested in.

It's the same reason why I was excited to read We3 and Pride of Baghdad, but not so much Lockjaw and the Pet Avengers. It's not because I'm put off by talking animal heroes; I just find the restrictions of a common universe limiting, sometimes. Especially when I have only so much time and money to divide across multiple areas of interest.

And this is already coming from somebody with relatively broad tastes AND a working familiarity with the basic continuity of both the "mainstream" DC and Marvel universes. (Actually, the fact that I need to refer to the "mainstream" universe at all probably indicates a fundamental problem with the medium itself.)

So, yes, by all means, give Loeb his due share of the blame. But realize also that there are deeper causes for the present state of things. Ultimately, the only way that perceptions will ever change is to support quality titles. Thankfully, we have a vibrant and diverse community of people to help us out.

Once again, I'm going to say that fans have been implicit in all this as well, particularly when superhero comics went from being the realm of children to that of adult collectors. Now you have an overwhelming and damaging faction of people (FANBOYS, by their proper name) who care far more about characters and companies than they do about actual good stories, or comic books as an art form. It's that attitude that easily keeps horrible comics (jephloebjephloebjephloeb) going. I love Batman and Spider-Man and plenty of superheroes, but being so attached to them that you'll read stories about them no matter how poorly their written is very much juvenile.

Ergo, the real challenge is to rise above the noise made by fans with less desirable qualities. It seems more sensible to get the larger reading public on our side by championing great work, and just ignoring the loud minority of uncritical fanboys like their opinions don't matter.

 

[Langsta]

The Comics Code Authority is probably where the problem began, severely limiting what comics could and couldn't do.

Once again, I'm going to say that fans have been implicit in all this as well, particularly when superhero comics went from being the realm of children to that of adult collectors. Now you have an overwhelming and damaging faction of people (FANBOYS, by their proper name) who care far more about characters and companies than they do about actual good stories, or comic books as an art form. It's that attitude that easily keeps horrible comics (jephloebjephloebjephloeb) going. I love Batman and Spider-Man and plenty of superheroes, but being so attached to them that you'll read stories about them no matter how poorly their written is very much juvenile.

No, it's not the Comics Code. Even before that, Stan Lee said that his editors believed that comics were written solely for kids.

 

[Bass]

Anyone wondering why comics should be considered a step down just needs to look at Marvel and DC and things like ULTIMATUM and COUNTDOWN for their answer.

The Heirarchy of Literary Elitism (in order of most respected to least respected)

THE NOVELIST/AUTHOR - This guy is such an amazing writer that he's transcended the word 'writer' and is just 'the novelist' or ;author'. Everyone immediately assumes that they're some incredible James Joyce tortured artist working away in a cottage writing "literature" even though no one ****ing reads them.

THE PLAYWRIGHT - Not as transcendent as the novelist, since the playwright sounds like "write" is in his title, but it's spelt in ye olde english because every playwright is William Shakespeare. Even though the last time you went to a theatre was never ago because have you been to see a play? Two people. Arguing. For four hours. To the audience. This is where Big Brother started.

SCREENWRITER - And now we enter people who are 'writers'. There is almost no respect for a screenwriter, but people assume that he must be astonishingly wealthy and have access to all kinds of sexy celebrities. People don't respect the screenwriter's screenplay, but are drawn to the glamour of Hollywood.

TV WRITER - Much like screenwriters only smaller.

ANIMATED CARTOON WRITER - "How cute!" People love the work, and enjoy it but assume it's easy to write a children's story.

RADIO WRITER - "How quaint!" There's no respect for the work, but there is respect for working in a dead medium. People appreciate the history and tradition oof it.

COMIC WRITER - People assume a comic writer is a writer who isn't good enough to write for a cartoon show. And people think you don't need talent to do that. So... y'know. You do this, you're a failed writer. Unless they accompany you to a con and you're beloved. Or Alan Moore. Then they may change their minds.

FAN FICTION WRITER - All fan fiction is writing you into your favourite tv show as a saviour who is incredibly important to everything and has sex with all the characters. You cannot sink lower, apparently, because you aren't being paid.

Where falleth you?

 

[Jaggyd]

Anyone wondering why comics should be considered a step down just needs to look at Marvel and DC and things like ULTIMATUM and COUNTDOWN for their answer.

The Heirarchy of Literary Elitism (in order of most respected to least respected)

THE NOVELIST/AUTHOR - This guy is such an amazing writer that he's transcended the word 'writer' and is just 'the novelist' or ;author'. Everyone immediately assumes that they're some incredible James Joyce tortured artist working away in a cottage writing "literature" even though no one ****ing reads them.

THE PLAYWRIGHT - Not as transcendent as the novelist, since the playwright sounds like "write" is in his title, but it's spelt in ye olde english because every playwright is William Shakespeare. Even though the last time you went to a theatre was never ago because have you been to see a play? Two people. Arguing. For four hours. To the audience. This is where Big Brother started.

SCREENWRITER - And now we enter people who are 'writers'. There is almost no respect for a screenwriter, but people assume that he must be astonishingly wealthy and have access to all kinds of sexy celebrities. People don't respect the screenwriter's screenplay, but are drawn to the glamour of Hollywood.

TV WRITER - Much like screenwriters only smaller.

ANIMATED CARTOON WRITER - "How cute!" People love the work, and enjoy it but assume it's easy to write a children's story.

RADIO WRITER - "How quaint!" There's no respect for the work, but there is respect for working in a dead medium. People appreciate the history and tradition oof it.

COMIC WRITER - People assume a comic writer is a writer who isn't good enough to write for a cartoon show. And people think you don't need talent to do that. So... y'know. You do this, you're a failed writer. Unless they accompany you to a con and you're beloved. Or Alan Moore. Then they may change their minds.

FAN FICTION WRITER - All fan fiction is writing you into your favourite tv show as a saviour who is incredibly important to everything and has sex with all the characters. You cannot sink lower, apparently, because you aren't being paid.

Where falleth you?

I'm an artist, fortunately.


The problem with that scale though, real writers like (Jody Picoult and *shudder* Orson Scott Card) have written comics, as well as Screenwriters like Johns and Heinburg. So where do they fall? Or comic book writers like Neil Gaiman who's crossed over into a successful career as a novelist.

 

[moonmaster]

No, it's not the Comics Code. Even before that, Stan Lee said that his editors believed that comics were written solely for kids.

Well it's not so much an issue of content - comic books probably would've become 'adult' at the exact same point regardless, simply because of changing generations of readers and creators - the real problem is that the Comics Code killed sci-fi, horror, and crime comics, which were slowly pushing the superhero comics back and expanding the medium into many different genres.

Anyone wondering why comics should be considered a step down just needs to look at Marvel and DC and things like ULTIMATUM and COUNTDOWN for their answer.

I think people also find it harder to digest such crap storytelling when it's coming through superheroes.

The typical crap romantic comedy, in its own special way, is just as silly and unfeasible as any typical crap superhero comic, but it's far harder for people to swallow the silly and unfeasible when it's happening in a world of flying men in tights.

Superheroes, no matter how much we love them, are at their core juvenile fantasies. That doesn't mean they can't rise to the point of being incredible mediums for mythological and deep storytelling, but they have to rise very far above the simple fact that they were designed to entertain small children.

COMIC WRITER - People assume a comic writer is a writer who isn't good enough to write for a cartoon show. And people think you don't need talent to do that. So... y'know. You do this, you're a failed writer. Unless they accompany you to a con and you're beloved. Or Alan Moore. Then they may change their minds.

Or Frank Miller.

'Cuz his comics has boobeez in them which means they're for super mature grown-ups and stuff.

I'm an artist, fortunately.


The problem with that scale though, real writers like (Jody Picoult and *shudder* Orson Scott Card) have written comics, as well as Screenwriters like Johns and Heinburg. So where do they fall? Or comic book writers like Neil Gaiman who's crossed over into a successful career as a novelist.

It's simple: the higher the medium is on the scale, the more it 'counts' as a part of their bibliography.

That's why Neil Gaiman is probably most commonly known in the 'normal people world' as a best-selling author rather than a talented and influential comic book writer.

 

[Bass]

I'm an artist, fortunately.

"Fortunately?" :lol: :lol: :lol:

The problem with that scale though, real writers like (Jody Picoult and *shudder* Orson Scott Card) have written comics, as well as Screenwriters like Johns and Heinburg. So where do they fall? Or comic book writers like Neil Gaiman who's crossed over into a successful career as a novelist.

When writing comics, they are 'slumming'.

It's simple: the higher the medium is on the scale, the more it 'counts' as a part of their bibliography.

That's why Neil Gaiman is probably most commonly known in the 'normal people world' as a best-selling author rather than a talented and influential comic book writer.

Or what he said.