Kirkman shows off sketches from Ultimate X-Men #73

I never claimed that the Magician made the Phoenix exist. If that's what you interpreted from my post, I apologize. What I was saying was that the Magician was more like the last straw on the camel's back, seeing as how we're actually going somewhere with the Phoenix now, rather than saying that the build-up to the Phoenix was bull****. I understand there have been hints of the Phoenix's existance and eventual "appearance", but why now? That's what I was trying to piece together. Whew. Poor writing or not, I had an idea and I put it up here.
 
Ultimate MJ said:
I agree that it would be silly if it turned out that Magician was behind ALL of the pheonix stuff, especially the earlier arcs.

But why is it so outrageous to think that the new mysterious character might be PROVOKING or influencing Jeans latest meltdown?

Goodwills theory isn't that far out there to think that Magician is either conciously or subconciously provoking problems at the institute right now.
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Because it cheapens the Phoenix story a great deal. Right now we have to major things happening; The Magician and Phoenix. If The Magician was responsible for Phoenix that would mean the Phoenix entity wasn't strong enough to show it's own face until a newbie mutant came along and forced it out just for parlor tricks.

That would make The Phoenix pretty sucky. And The Magician way too powerful of a character to be able to control or manipulate, to an extent, The Phoenix Force.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
Because it cheapens the Phoenix story a great deal. Right now we have to major things happening; The Magician and Phoenix. If The Magician was responsible for Phoenix that would mean the Phoenix entity wasn't strong enough to show it's own face until a newbie mutant came along and forced it out just for parlor tricks.

That would make The Phoenix pretty sucky. And The Magician way too powerful of a character to be able to control or manipulate, to an extent, The Phoenix Force.
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This is a better explanation than I could have thought up.

*Claps*
 
Time out.

Everyone - including MwoF and jtg - the term is "constructive criticism". Ideas are ideas. Respect that he has the balls to post them, no matter how stupid you think they are.

Goodie - don't be so touchy. Realize that if you are going to offer up suggestions, some people aren't going to like them. Stop acting like people are out to get you.

Back on topic.
 
E said:
Time out.

Everyone - including MwoF and jtg - the term is "constructive criticism". Ideas are ideas. Respect that he has the balls to post them, no matter how stupid you think they are.

Goodie - don't be so touchy. Realize that if you are going to offer up suggestions, some people aren't going to like them. Stop acting like people are out to get you.

Back on topic.
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I thought I was giving constructive criticism?
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
Because it cheapens the Phoenix story a great deal. Right now we have to major things happening; The Magician and Phoenix. If The Magician was responsible for Phoenix that would mean the Phoenix entity wasn't strong enough to show it's own face until a newbie mutant came along and forced it out just for parlor tricks.

That would make The Phoenix pretty sucky. And The Magician way too powerful of a character to be able to control or manipulate, to an extent, The Phoenix Force.
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Meh. I still dont think its an outrageous idea that somehow the young, powerful Magician is somehow manipulating the young, unpredictable Jean Grey.

And I don't think that cheapens the character ot the story. Heck, the Magician may even be a creation of the Pheonix force to drive Jean Grey crazy and pave the way for Dark Pheonix.

Either way, we will know within the next year.

OH, and BTW, I am excited to see the continuing relationship with Charlie and Fury explored. I like that interaction as much as I like the Spidey/Fury interaction.
 
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Ultimate MJ said:
Meh. I still dont think its an outrageous idea that somehow the young, powerful Magician is somehow manipulating the young, unpredictable Jean Grey.

And I don't think that cheapens the character ot the story. Heck, the Magician may even be a creation of the Pheonix force to drive Jean Grey crazy and pave the way for Dark Pheonix.
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But here's the thing, the Phoenix Force has been around before the Magician has even been born. The Phoenix Force is real, and not some parlor trick that someone cooked up. What happened with Jean and Phoenix finally making an appearance was not due to the Magician unless he secretly has a twin who's a shapeshifter and became Lilandra or something. And with the call Gerald made to the HFC? Come on. Now, the magican may be able to manipulate Jean but not the Phoenix itself. That force isn't something so easily controlled by magic. And if the magician can control it, then so now Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, and any other magic weilding person. Well, that makes it easy to defeat.

And actually, we will find out next arc.
 
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The Phoenix is evidently the core to our Earth... Meaning that it would have been created even before Jean was born. The fact that the Phoenix is older than the Magician is irrelevant. There is something to the Magician that, when explained, his character will make sense, I'm sure of it... And, with that mind set, I started thinking of solutions. I also think Lilandra has a lot to do with it, too... Perhaps she left out part of the story when she told Xavier about the origin of the Phoenix. Only time will tell.

E, the only reason I got touchy was because Ice said that I always say off the wall stuff. With the exception of the Music Thread, where I only say things lightly, I don't think I've thrown out any outrageous ideas without backing them up. This argument, too, is where it was blown out of proportion just because I had an idea. I am willing to argue a point, but to have some rule my ideas are more outrageous than others is unfair. Bottom line. That's all I will say.
 
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Ice said:
Come on. Now, the magican may be able to manipulate Jean but not the Phoenix itself.
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Umm.... I'm pretty sure thats more or less what I said...

me said:
somehow the young, powerful Magician is somehow manipulating the young, unpredictable Jean Grey.
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me said:
the new mysterious character might be PROVOKING or influencing Jeans latest meltdown?
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So why are we arguing/debating?

Jean has been repeatedly portrayed as fragile and emotionally unstable, but that doesnt mean the pheonix force is cheapened. Again, it just doesn't seem that outrageous that the magician is somehow affecting her in an already unstable state.

The call to the HFC does seem to indicate the phoenix is real though.

And slightly more on topic, does everyone think the goons previewed earlier are the FoH? And I think Xavier and Fury must be talking about either the Magician or Syndicate... I wonder what Furys interest is.
 
Ultimate MJ said:
Umm.... I'm pretty sure thats more or less what I said...
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I wasn't arguing nor debating that point. I merely restated that as part of my post to continue what I was saying.
 
Goodwill said:
The Phoenix is evidently the core to our Earth...
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That's what the Shi'iar believe - whether or not that is based in reality remains to be seen. I'd bet it isn't.


Goodwill said:
The fact that the Phoenix is older than the Magician is irrelevant.
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I agree, but probably not for the same reason you do. If his "powers" can exist independent of time or give him a sort of mastery of time, it wouldn't matter if the Phoenix came first.
 
E said:
That's what the Shi'iar believe - whether or not that is based in reality remains to be seen. I'd bet it isn't.
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Do you think the HFC's ideas are based in reality?

The way I see it, the pheonix force could still be a fake, just a crazy manifestation of a confused omega-level mutant. In the end, we all know some writer is gonna actually introduce the pheonix, but its interesting to have it still shrouded in mystery.
 
Ultimate MJ said:
Do you think the HFC's ideas are based in reality?
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Ah...based in reality - yes. But that doesn't mean much; most of the wackiest beliefs are based in some kind of reality. Obviously they are on to something though.

Ultimate MJ said:
The way I see it, the pheonix force could still be a fake, just a crazy manifestation of a confused omega-level mutant. In the end, we all know some writer is gonna actually introduce the pheonix, but its interesting to have it still shrouded in mystery.
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Very well could be...I would have preferred BKV to tackle this because not knowing a lot about Kirkman I'm afraid we might get some kind of mystical thing that has no business in the UU.
 
E, you're suggesting that the Magician is a mutant, whose powers make it so that time is not an object to him? It's an interesting theory, I will admit... If that is what you're saying. For instance, if I am understanding correctly, the Magician could travel back and forth through time, age dramatically on a whim, and manipulate things in between... If he really wanted to. IF his reality-altering powers are all that strong, right?

This brings me to another point as to why the Magician HAS to be more than what we've seen of him. We can't have a person THAT strong as a regular cast member. That's why I only like Scarlet Witch in moderation... That's how she should be written. Now, granted the Phoenix is probably more powerful, the Magician can alter things just like that... The Brotherhood likely appeared because he willed it, you know what I mean? If this went on for much longer, I'd be concerned for the title. This was a rant... If it doesn't make sense, let me know.
 
Goodwill said:
E, you're suggesting that the Magician is a mutant, whose powers make it so that time is not an object to him? It's an interesting theory, I will admit... If that is what you're saying.
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It's not neccessarily what I think is going to happen, but it could be a possibility. My only point is that you can't discount him having something to do with the Phoenix just because it existed before him. Besides, he could be hundreds of years old for all we know.

I personally doubt he has anything to do with the Phoenix, but I'm just saying this is a comic book. Weird things happen.
 
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