How many members here are Christians?

However, to get a little cheesy here, I think that the idea that "God is Love" is the closest definition in human terms to what we understand as God. Because more than anything else, Love is a human emotion that transcends all others. We can shut it down and ignore it, but people can't thrive or really be happy (unless they are amoral and psychotic) without love in their life... If you simplify Christ's message a bit it was for all of us to remember that we have to love eachother... Because loving eachother is where God exists... Its what brings us together and also what makes us closer to God. I think its silly to think that God loves ____ and God hates ____ because at the end of the day, God IS love, he's not sitting up in a chair nitpicking over whether so-and-so stole a pack of sparklers in the sixth grade. Organized religion used to embody that community of close-knit love, and brotherhood, but got a little lost in the dogma and traditions... which is why i am a bit of a non-practising catholic... But its all in there, its at the heart of most every story in the Bible (at least the Gospels, and SOME of the Old Testament, if you ignore the tribal laws of the Hebrews, and the history of ancient wars in the Middle East... because i'm sure God totally condones the absolute slaughter of every large group of people his people conquered in the old days... Gotta love that law... they would even kill women and children, and all their livestock...) But I'm rambling.

I consider myself more spiritual than Religious. I tend to talk to God sometimes when I'm really stressed... I don't pray really... Its just a way of talking through some of the **** i'm going through.

But yeah.

You're clearly a genius, Doc, because that pretty much describes my stance. :D

:lol:

She'd be a lot better off to stick with that theory, I forget whose it was(might have been Aquinas), about how since science says that everything that happens has to have a cause to activate it, the Universe(or existence in general) must have been set in motion by something, and whatever that something is would meet the defition of "God", and therefore, according to the fundamental principles of science, "God" must exist.

I kind of like that one.

This is my reason for God existing. He pretty much has to. Of course, a good (And very intelligent) Atheist friend of mine always counters "Then what created God?" and I just reply "I think it's beyond our comprehension to understand the concept of God always existing", but he just scoffs at the idea. Oh well.
 
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I consider myself more spiritual than Religious.
I particularly like this viewpoint.

I suppose I would be considered ultra-religious because I attend church every Sunday, and on holy days, and do the whole "fast and give something up for Lent", pray daily, and so on. Of course, I was a child in the pre-Vatican II church, and those things were all expected of everyone. (For those who've never had to deal with Vatican II, it was a re-examination and revision of the Roman Catholic Church's rules, practices, and interprtetations of the Bible back in the middle 1960s. Its main goal was to make the church more accessible to the average Catholic. It succeeded in some ways, not so well in others. Before that, the church rules on a lot of things were much stricter than they are now, believe it or not.) I don't know if this makes me a better person, it's just what I've chosen to do.

However, attending church on Sunday may not always be the best way for people to connect with God, and these days I'm more sympathetic to people who are doing something that allows them to experience God and is meaningful to them. I've just picked up a lovely book called the Spiritual Field Guide, which contains readings from a number of religions that talk about finding God through or in the natural world. (Seriously, after traveling all over the United States, I have seen a number of natural wonders that really are awe inspiring. If you can't find God somewhere in nature, you have no soul. :wink: )

There's a great scene in Jean M. Auel's Clan of the Cave Bear in which Ayla, the main character, is talking to the tribal shamen about following her Spirit Guide, and she shows him the objects she has in her amulet, which is a little pouch every clan member wears. Each time she has had to make an important decision, she asks her Spirit Guide for help, and often finds some small object that affirms that she made the right decision (an unusual kind of stone, for example). But the shamen can't interpret the objects she carries, because they represent her spiritual journey, not his. He understands why she has the objects, but they don't mean the same thing to him.

I think this is true of a lot of us -- we are on a spiritual journey, but it's different for everyone. I shy away from the "my religion is right and yours is wrong" attitude, because I don't know what goes on between other people and God. So I just do the best I can and try to be at least tolerant of other people's faiths. I do find the study of comparative religions fascinating -- it's interesting to see how other religions handle the same concepts as mine does.
 
I know I said I'd refrain from posting on this thread, but Seldes raised a few points i'd like to address with the rest of the community, as it were...

I suppose I would be considered ultra-religious because I attend church every Sunday, and on holy days, and do the whole "fast and give something up for Lent", pray daily, and so on. Of course, I was a child in the pre-Vatican II church, and those things were all expected of everyone.
The thing about ANY religious council is the most that it can do is to loosen the rules, and clarify the way tradition -- in this case, the Apostolic Tradition -- will be practiced.

But it's entirely up to the community-at-large to decide the extent to which these guidelines will be followed.

So the practical expectations for Catholics and/or Christians in the US were effectively 'liberalized' on account of the same relaxation of cultural mores that were happening, writ large, during the 60s -- the laissez-faire open-mindedness that allowed, say, the concepts of 'Free Love', or the Hippie mentality, or the peace movement to develop.

But the reforms of Vatican II were never really adopted or internalized in Philippine culture until generations later, so it was more or less expected of Filipinos who are Seldes' age to keep up the same kind of observance of ritual that she still practices today -- but without the heartfelt sincerity that she feels.

That's because religious ceremonies often involve as much of a social function as a spiritual one, for better or worse. For example, attending Masses is/was percieved as being integral to the growth of the secular community, as much as it is deemed an 'appropriate' way to excersise one's faith, as a Christian. And being sin-free "enough" to be seen recieving the Eucharist is understood as important, not only for the sake of being in communion with Christ, but as a "stamp of approval" of one's good moral standing, within the parish community.

And it's really this conflation of social values with spirituality -- too often taken for granted, even in contemporary Filipino culture -- that puts me off engaging with organized religion, even if I can't escape its reach altogether.

EDIT: I understand that it's damn near impossible to seperate the practice of faith from one's ethics and moral standards (in everyday life), because living in a decent, humane way would (nautrally) be a pre-requisite for achieving any kind of inner, spiritual peace. But I hate the idea that adherence to specified religious practices should be a measure of one's percieved worth, as a Christian AND as a citizen. Am I making sense? :?



(For those who've never had to deal with Vatican II, it was a re-examination and revision of the Roman Catholic Church's rules, practices, and interprtetations of the Bible back in the middle 1960s. Its main goal was to make the church more accessible to the average Catholic. It succeeded in some ways, not so well in others. Before that, the church rules on a lot of things were much stricter than they are now, believe it or not.)
This also brings up a second point -- is there a need for a Third Vatican Council, to address the specific concerns of the "post-9/11 global marketplace"?

We have a (relatively) new Pope in place, and he's presiding over a Church that's meant to be a moral and ethical compass for its flock, at a time when ALL kinds of religious fundamentalisms are more pervasive than ever.

Moreover, it needs to adapt to a world where different varieties of Islam are becoming an increasingly influential force, not only religiously, but also socially, and in terms of the economic power of its followers -- some of whom do not adhere to the concepts of democracy and/or pluralism, enshrined in Vatican II.

I'm definitely NOT suggesting that the Church revert to its stricter (more intolerant?) pre-Vatican II positions. But it needs to find a way to make its commitment to a more dynamic and vibrant Christianity viable in a time when it faces more militant opposition to its core beliefs.
 
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I don't have a problem with Christian comics-as long as there are portraying Christians the right way, and it doesn't conflict with the Word of God and what it says.

I have a problem when people made things like:

Evangelyne
Preacher
Jesus vs. Zombies
 
I have a problem when people made things like:

Evangelyne
Preacher
Jesus vs. Zombies

I just take all of this for what it is: Fiction. Admittedly, I've only read Preacher, which is an awesome series. Do I believe any of it is possible? Of course not! The portrayal of God, in particular, is laughable. As is the entire concept of Genesis and the Saint of Killers. That's the way you have to look at it, Mavericker. It's all fiction and is an entertaining "What if?". When people start using it to attack your beliefs, that's when you make a stand.
 
I just take all of this for what it is: Fiction. Admittedly, I've only read Preacher, which is an awesome series. Do I believe any of it is possible? Of course not! The portrayal of God, in particular, is laughable. As is the entire concept of Genesis and the Saint of Killers. That's the way you have to look at it, Mavericker. It's all fiction and is an entertaining "What if?". When people start using it to attack your beliefs, that's when you make a stand.

I think those types of comics are produced by atheists, for atheists. I think that's the reason why tv shows like Morel Orel exist.
 
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It seems like those comics are produced by atheists, for atheists. I think that's the reason why tv shows like Morel Orel exists.

I'm pretty sure Garth Ennis is actually a disillusioned Protestant that is commenting on organized religion, rather than the belief in God itself. Don't quote me on that though.

I also don't think Atheists, who don't believe in God at all, would find more entertainment in Preacher (Or any other of Ennis' religious works, like Chronicles of Wormwood) than someone who is more versed in the source material would.

It's like Dogma. It heavily criticizes organized religion (In this case, Catholisism), but still has a pretty powerful "God Exists" message.
 
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I'm pretty sure Garth Ennis is actually a disillusioned Protestant that is commenting on organized religion, rather than the belief in God itself. Don't quote me on that though.

I also don't think Atheists, who don't believe in God at all, would find more entertainment in Preacher (Or any other of Ennis' religious works, like Chronicles of Wormwood) than someone who is more versed in the source material would.

It's like Dogma. It heavily criticizes organized religion (In this case, Catholisism), but still has a pretty powerful "God Exists" message.

The character's name is Avengelyne. I think she's among the worst-dressed characters in comics.

No angelic being would dress like this:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/4f/300px-Avengelyne_Bible-01.jpg
 
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Preacher is a brilliant series. Fair enought I can see how it would offend the ultra devout like yourself Mavericker, who as a group seem to manage to decide anything that isn't the Bible and mentions God as sacreligious. As Lynx said, its not written seriously, its fiction. If it was written and had a big sticker on the front saying "This is the true Bible, the other one is a load of rubbish" then I could understand the offence a little more...
 
The character's name is Avengelyne. I think she's among the worst-dressed characters in comics.

No angelic being would dress like this:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/4f/300px-Avengelyne_Bible-01.jpg

Well, first, you didn't really comment on my point. Which you really need to learn to start doing.

Second, I'm pretty sure angels are often depicted as nude. I doubt "clothes", a human invention, exist in Heaven. So "scantily clad" angels are pretty much a non-point.
 
Well, first, you didn't really comment on my point. Which you really need to learn to start doing.

Second, I'm pretty sure angels are often depicted as nude. I doubt "clothes", a human invention, exist in Heaven. So "scantily clad" angels are pretty much a non-point.

Dogma is a sacrilegous farce about the Catholic Church, that Kevin Smith directed.

Kevin Smith-a man who uses the F-word 106 times in this film.
 
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Dogma is a sacrilegous farce about the Catholic Church, that Kevin Smith directed.

Kevin Smith-a man who uses the F-word 106 times in this film.

I sense hostility.

First, give me a reason why its a sacreligious farce, rather then yelling it. Second, I dare you to show me anything in the Bible that states that the F-word is some slight against God.
 
I sense hostility.

First, give me a reason why its a sacreligious farce, rather then yelling it. Second, I dare you to show me anything in the Bible that states that the F-word is some slight against God.

I'm not being hostile-I was emphasizing my point.
 
Ok. Then, explain it so I can understand where you're coming from.

The Bible is not silent on the proper use of human language. Paul wrote:


"Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear" (Eph. 4:29).

It says it Deut.-"You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain. For the Lord will not leave unpunished him who takes His name in vain."
 
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The Bible is not silent on the proper use of human language. Paul wrote:


"Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear" (Eph. 4:29).

So, saying "F you" is actually no different than saying "Darn you", since they're both insulting, correct?

And yes, I understand the Second Commandment. I wasn't talking about "God D***it", I was talking about the F-word.
 
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So, saying "F you" is actually no different than saying "Darn you", since they're both insulting, correct?

And yes, I understand the Second Commandment. I wasn't talking about "God D***it", I was talking about the F-word.

I think "darn you" is a euphanism for "d**m you".

You do you keep bringing up the Catholics?

I'm not a Catholic-Catholics are Pagans and idol-worshipers. No where in the Bible does it say that Christians are to worship the Virgin Mary.

It is written in Psalms 97:7:

Let all those be ashamed who serve graven images, Who boast themselves of idols; Worship Him, all you gods.
 
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It was cited in Wikipedia.

Oh my.

Well, I'd probably best ally myself with DSF's point of view. I'm a spiritual person which at least to me means that God exists and that is it. He finds ways to give people hope, whether through a book [be it a bible or Seven Soldiers] or love [for him, for family]. Most people have found solace in books with his name attached to it when all things have his name attached to it somehow. I'm a believer in free will, I believe god exists to help give us hints to help us live a full life. I think thats pretty much it for my belief. And very much like DSF I do find myself speaking to God as I would my dad.
 

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