How many members here are Christians?

The problem with religion nowadays is that people take it too literally.



EXACTLY! And then those who hear the name jesus and either think illegal alien or "Back off or get bear maced. " Still haven't forgiven doom. :x

And gemini, i'm not trying to disagree with you, i'm more just telling you my experiences and my peeves. I would never try to alienate you. sorry. :roll:
 
EXACTLY! And then those who hear the name jesus and either think illegal alien or "Back off or get bear maced. " Still haven't forgiven doom. :x

And gemini, i'm not trying to disagree with you, i'm more just telling you my experiences and my peeves. I would never try to alienate you. sorry. :roll:

i edited the post, it came out a little wrong, i'm tired i don't want to argue with you guys right now that's all

another thing you guys might find funny

i have relatives in the south (louisiana) who are religous, like really religous, they're also pretty stupid, they're those types that honestly beleive that jesus and god are the same thing

they baffle me to no end
 
I love what Dr. Strangefate said about literalism ages ago:

The Idea behind Crazy-*** Atheism and Crazy-*** Deism is fundamentally the same. It's saying that we should not and cannot believe anything that isn't written on the page of a book. Atheists argue we cannot believe anything not scientifically proven, and thats what's destroying the world. Fundamentalists argue that we cannot believe anything not specifically stated in the Bible, and thats what's destroying the world. Both ideas are bull****. And both ideologies suggest that the deterioration of the world is anyone's fault but their own. It's like parents blaming gun violence on video games rather than bad parenting. Bad people want to be bad people, and they want to be right. So they justify it however they want to justify it and use their justifications to withhold information and brainwash people from their youth. If they had total freedom of information in the middle east and a progressive education system that taught them philosophy and history, we wouldn't have the problem we have today... Same thing with home-schooled American religious fundamentalists.

I've used that argument before in conversation. Brilliant.

Read his whole post.

And the whole thread.
 
i edited the post, it came out a little wrong, i'm tired i don't want to argue with you guys right now that's all

another thing you guys might find funny

i have relatives in the south (louisiana) who are religous, like really religous, they're also pretty stupid, they're those types that honestly beleive that jesus and god are the same thing

they baffle me to no end

well, catholics believe they are two separate entities. anyone else like baptist, lutheran or non catholic christians believe jesus was God on Earth. take that as you will.
 
well, catholics believe they are two separate entities. anyone else like baptist, lutheran or non catholic christians believe jesus was God on Earth. take that as you will.

yeah, you know i used to know alot of this stuff

but then i got into comics

they also ruined my comprehensive knowledge of automobiles (i could tell you the year, make, model, type of drivetrain, type of engine, number of cylinders, displacement, horsepower, brake horsepower, and torque just by looking at a car)

****ing comics

i have alot of religous people in my family lutherans, mormons, catholics, presbiterians, the whole shebang. I was even baptised (AGAINST MY PARENTS WISHES but that's a different story) i just never really adopted religon into my life, but i think growing up around these concept's really cultivated my interest's in mythology (mainly Greek) and what some call the closest thing to modern mythology comic books
 
yeah, you know i used to know alot of this stuff

but then i got into comics

they also ruined my comprehensive knowledge of automobiles (i could tell you the year, make, model, type of drivetrain, type of engine, number of cylinders, displacement, horsepower, brake horsepower, and torque just by looking at a car)

****ing comics

i have alot of religous people in my family lutherans, mormons, catholics, presbiterians, the whole shebang. I was even baptised (AGAINST MY PARENTS WISHES but that's a different story) i just never really adopted religon into my life, but i think growing up around these concept's really cultivated my interest's in mythology (mainly Greek) and what some call the closest thing to modern mythology comic books


as long as you don't end up sniping people after getting disgruntled, I think you're good. 8)
 
I really feel I should talk about the idea of "organised religion is bad".

I truly think you have not thought through those statements well enough (though sadly, I see it more commonly than I'd like). Saying religion is inherently bad or absolutely bad (in that it is always something to oppose) is kinda like saying "education is bad".

It's sheer nonsense: it's the form the education takes that's what important.

Unfortunately, organized religion is not the same as education. While it involves much education, its core purpose is instruction, and I think that's a very bad thing when it comes to something as personal as religion. Points of view are grand, discussion, debates, sharing of stories, etc. Those types of things should be allowed to go on without the necessary foundations the people running the church say have to be givens. I think the appeal of Christianity is unfathomably limited by the insistence on Jesus being the literal son of God and a million other things that have since become tacked on to his teachings, when really, the whole thing should just be a completely open playing field where people can pick and choose what they want, say why and ask others why. Disorganized religion.

When it all comes down to it, it should be like UC. This is as close to a Church of comics as you'll reasonably find, but no one's saying who you must accept as the best writer or what you have to like to be a real comic fan. It's just a place where people who like comics can discuss, interpret and share ideas and predictions on them. That's as close to organized religion as I think people should come. Other than that, you're better off at home reading comics and deciding what you like and figuring out why you like it, not listening to someone who doesn't know you telling you which ones you should like whether or not they are actually appreciable by someone who's lived your life.

Religion is much like education for the spirit (as opposed to the mind). It's to teach wisdom and ethics and to deal with the terrible paradoxes that exist in our lives (why must life end in death, for example). If you have a good teacher, you'll learn well. If you have a bad teacher, you won't. Islam, for example, in the hands of a devout, compassionate imam, can be a holy, sacred experience that enriches your life. Or, it can be an instrument of war in the hands of crazy zealots who are really pissed off.

But even in the hands of that wonderful imam, wouldn't he still be obligated to rope in the good stuff with other stuff that someone would find bad and unnecessary in the appreciation of said good stuff, but according to the people who run the Religion, have to accept anyway?

The problem I feel you face, in terms of what your perception of religion is, is that you (like far too many others) believe that religion is the end of understanding. That if you're a Christian, you are not allowed to examine or participate in other beliefs. And you know what? I bet a lot of Christians feel that way too. But religions are not meant to be exclusive - in the long-term. (At the beginning, of course they are.)

But the problem I have isn't the limitations, it's the foundations the endless world of understanding must be built on according to a church, often without reason or connection other than "it's in the same book".
 
i don't know, you can't really compare comics to the bible. it's one book compared to many. You can't say ellis is jesus and millar is buddah. you can still like both but in religion you're pretty much tied to one religion and one god unless your a polygamist.

Education is instruction.
 
when it comes to religon i can admit i'm a little too jaded and i'll accept that.

That, essentially, is what I was saying. ^__^

Unfortunately, organized religion is not the same as education. While it involves much education, its core purpose is instruction, and I think that's a very bad thing when it comes to something as personal as religion.

Replace "that's a very bad thing" with "that can be a very bad thing" and I pretty much agree.

When it all comes down to it, it should be like UC. This is as close to a Church of comics as you'll reasonably find, but no one's saying who you must accept as the best writer or what you have to like to be a real comic fan. It's just a place where people who like comics can discuss, interpret and share ideas and predictions on them. That's as close to organized religion as I think people should come. Other than that, you're better off at home reading comics and deciding what you like and figuring out why you like it, not listening to someone who doesn't know you telling you which ones you should like whether or not they are actually appreciable by someone who's lived your life.

That's okay, but you're forgetting that spirituality is generally more important or should I say, 'less trivial', than your favourite comic book writer and thus, would naturally require a more involved approach to the decision-making process. Also, that methodology is fine for rational, mature, wise people. Not everyone is, and thus, just as you say "everyone shouldn't pray the same way", so too, should everyone not be free from instruction in the same way. Some people need/want it, and everyone needs it to some degree.

But even in the hands of that wonderful imam, wouldn't he still be obligated to rope in the good stuff with other stuff that someone would find bad and unnecessary in the appreciation of said good stuff, but according to the people who run the Religion, have to accept anyway?

I honestly don't know what you're asking. :?
 
well, catholics believe they are two separate entities.

Um... No we don't.

The Holy Trinity are the three aspects of God. God on Earth as a man is Jesus. God on Earth in Spirit is the Holy Spirit. And God in Heaven in God. Each of these three pieces are equally God and entirely the same person.

Who ever told you that Catholics think they're separate beings? That's a belief that Catholics deemed heretical in the Constantine days.
 
That's okay, but you're forgetting that spirituality is generally more important or should I say, 'less trivial', than your favourite comic book writer and thus, would naturally require a more involved approach to the decision-making process. Also, that methodology is fine for rational, mature, wise people. Not everyone is, and thus, just as you say "everyone shouldn't pray the same way", so too, should everyone not be free from instruction in the same way. Some people need/want it, and everyone needs it to some degree.

But where's the line? Who gets to decide if I'm rational, mature, and wise enough to be allowed to be free?

Sorry, but the very act of deciding who can be free and who can't means nobody is. And if we're talking about the freedom to decide one's personal religious beliefs here, everyone should be free from the start. You'll never budge me on this. They should be exposed to organized education about the religious concepts that are out there, but they should be free to decide what to choose from every last one of them, or when they can make up their own stuff to fill in.

This subject is far "less trivial" than comics indeed.... but that's all the more reason it should be left to each individual to decide for themselves.
 
But where's the line? Who gets to decide if I'm rational, mature, and wise enough to be allowed to be free?

Sorry, but the very act of deciding who can be free and who can't means nobody is. And if we're talking about the freedom to decide one's personal religious beliefs here, everyone should be free from the start. You'll never budge me on this. They should be exposed to organized education about the religious concepts that are out there, but they should be free to decide what to choose from every last one of them, or when they can make up their own stuff to fill in.

This subject is far "less trivial" than comics indeed.... but that's all the more reason it should be left to each individual to decide for themselves.

Yes, control and oppression can be hugely, overwhelmingly negative. Any history class will teach you that. But freedom can be so too. Absolute freedom can result in chaotic anarchy, where there is no civilisation, only survival of the fittest. But of course, this doesn't mean freedom is inherently chaotic. Just as organised religion isn't inherently oppressive.

You're talking as if there are only absolutes. This isn't true.

Being told what to do and how to do it as a default in a culture or tradition is not mutually exclusive with freedom. It can lead to freedom and liberation. Or it can lead to both - a balance; submission.

You're labouring under the idea that if one is not free, one is enslaved or oppressed. That's not true. There is submission. Submission, in English, has many negative connotations, but it's inherent to Islamic and Buddhist prayer and is a much more positive concept in those cultures.

But the reason the default should be one of strict regulations is because it is most likely safer, and will naturally give people the tools they need to live their lives fully, and allows everyone to continue to grow as the lessons of past generations are taught to the future ones, lest each generation begin anew.

But it's like any form of maturity - the quality of a mentor will affect the quality of the student, but without a mentor, there is no concept of progressive maturity at all.

You ask where the line is, but that's not important. If I said the line is at Point X, what would it matter? Change never occurs by a sudden crossing of a line. It's not "freedom" then "slavery" once the line is crossed, and never is change all-encompassing. Some of it will be free, and some oppressed. But there is no 'line'. The idea of a "line" creating a barrier between positive and negative is never a good one, as it implies that everything is binary - it is either one thing or another. But it's hardly ever true. The Yin-Yang has stark lines between the white and black, yet each contains and flows into the other.

Human nature is more akin to an elastic band. If one stretches it to an extreme, no matter which side you stretch, the other becomes just as taught, and the center threatens to snap. But leave it, and it rests, looping around so there is no side at all.

So I don't agree that if people are taught, disciplined, or even controlled, that it excludes freedom. I would suggest that both are needed for either to exist, and that really, there's very little difference between them. The more intense they are, the more they mirror each other.

There is virtue to authority figures saying you can't do whatever you want. That's what parents are for. :wink:
 
Are any UC members either practicing or former Episcopalians? If so, would you be willing to talk to me about your experiences (positive and/or negative), or point me to books or websites with information about the Episcopal faith? It can either be done through PMs or on this thread, whichever you prefer.
 
I'm not a christian but I know my stuff on the bible and the apocrypha. (relgion minor in school) I think I know more about cathloic scripture than I do about Jewish. (and I'm jewish)
 
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What have you got on The Book of Wisdom (a.k.a The Wisdom of Solomon)? It's part of the Apocrypha that only us Catholics seem to use much. But it contains some of my favorite Biblical images and quotes.
 
I am finally starting to feel guilty, in that good old fashioned catholic sort of way, about not going to church. I think I might start going this summer.
 
Ironically enough, I'm thinking about staying home on Sunday mornings.

I'm going to apologize in advance for the rest of this post. I usually try to keep my personal problems off the site because they're, you know, personal, and I doubt most people want to hear them. But this one has been bothering me for several months now, it recently has become very upsetting, and I do believe that God frequently speaks to us through other people. (I may not always like the message I get, but still....)

Some background: The church I've been attending for the last twelve years is closing at the end of the summer and its congregation will merge with another parish. Of course, we're all welcome to attend the other church's services once that happens. (One member of the choir commented that they would welcome our choir members because their own numbers are so small.) There have been several shared activities, and the two priests have "swapped pulpits" and so on. However, the other church is a city church, parking is an issue, and several of the people at my current church are there because they were former members of the other place and couldn't stand the priest. Granted, that may just be personality issues, but for various reasons I'm not really wild about the idea of moving to this new church.

However, many of the other churches in the area are closing or will close in the near future. The surviving churches, not surprisingly, will be mostly in the city, since they have the populations to sustain them. This includes a church that my grandparents helped start many years ago, which is expected to close within five years.

On top of that, I've become increasingly dissatisfied with Roman Catholicism, between the sex abuse scandals and the continued refusal to ordain women and a number of other issues. When the church closes this summer, I'm not sure whether I'll just stay home and not belong to any church for a while, or whether I'll actually join another Christian denomination instead. Hence my question about the Episcopal religion, since it seems to be the closest to Roman Catholicism in terms of structure and other characteristics.

My third option is to stay in the Catholic Church and either find some way to ignore all this stuff, or become an active feminist. I have to say I've yet to see any effective women's rights groups in Roman Catholicism, but perhaps I haven't searched enough.

I guess the fact that I'll be attending the comic book convention in New York City this Saturday instead of seeing the Pope at Yankee Stadium should tell you what kind of a Catholic I am. (Personally, I think we should invite the Pope over to join us. I'm guessing he's never been to a comic book convention before. It'll be a new experience for him. Not to mention for the rest of us.... :wink: )

Anyway, that's the most succinct and least emotion write-up I can do on this subject. Sorry about griping, but in the last couple of days I've seen some truly hateful comments made about women who support the idea of women's ordination (including one guy in my own church, who I told off for being sexist), and I found them to be more upsetting than usual. Maybe I'm must taking this too personally.
 

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