Holy Terror by Frank Miller

Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

David Blue said:
Obviously Frank Miller can only bring out comics in future, he can't bring them out in the past. (Except within comics, through the magic of retroactive continuity.)

But, if you want to do something equivalent to Captain America punching Hitler in the face, then waiting till 2007 or 2008 to disrespect Osama in comics is a bit like waiting till 1947 or 1948 to disrespect Hitler.

Captain America went in sale in 1940, a year before Pearl Harbor, and the first issue had Captain America on the cover punching Adolph on the jaw.

That was timely. Actually it was Timely Comics, that was the company. That was bold and gutsy. It meant Cap really stood for something. Nobody today is up to that standard.
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I award you Post of the Day.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

Ultimate Quicksilver said:
He still has time to punch Kim Jon-il.
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For all I know, Osama Bin Lalen is still alive too, and better late than never. So (shrug) I don't object to what Frank Miller is doing.

But, if you want to create a new character today who would become as classic and mean as much as someone like Captain America or Wonder Woman, I think the way to go is to be gutsy.

Make a stand, don't wait for most of a decade for a consensus to emerge and then boldly come out against the villains of a previous generation. Have your new character, the Lion of Africa or whatever come out now and on his first cover start laying into the Janjaweed, or some other bad guys we still don't want to deal with.

Do it before it's cool, and when it's still not clear that it will ever be cool, and if it comes off you can be a legend.

If an equal rights for women amendment passes in America, and DC waits for a decade or so to see how it's panning out, and then says, OK, this seems safe, let's bring out an exciting new feminist heroine to boldly stand up for that, how cool will that be? Not very. Compared to Wonder Woman done right, she wouldn't mean anything at all.

Osama Bin Laden declared war on America in 1998. And now (or whenever he gets around to it) the World's Greatest Detective figures out he's a bad guy?

I don't think that adds a lot to the Batman legend.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

Joe Kalicki said:
Why don't you post here more?
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Because I only get trades, mainly every trade of Ultimate Fantastic Four that comes out, and I don't like to get spoiled. When I get a new trade, like Ultimate Fantastic Four #7: God War, I read it, and log in here to post about that and discuss anything else I see. Otherwise I stay away, so I don't see anything about an issue that for other people is already published, but for me is a spoiler about what will be in my next trade(s).

Anyway, thanks for what I'll take as the implied compliment. :)

And, back on topic, we can already take it that this will not be Frank Miller's worst Batman. I don't foresee another Dark Knight Strikes Again, let alone something worse.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

David Blue said:
Make a stand, don't wait for most of a decade for a consensus to emerge and then boldly come out against the villains of a previous generation. Have your new character, the Lion of Africa or whatever come out now and on his first cover start laying into the Janjaweed, or some other bad guys we still don't want to deal with.

Do it before it's cool, and when it's still not clear that it will ever be cool, and if it comes off you can be a legend.
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I agree. I hate quoting myself but I will anyway:
ourchair said:
I really really really don't understand what the big deal would be about Al Qaeda vs. Batman.

Some people say it's politically correct, some say it's not right to mix the real world with the tights fantasy of superheroes. However, the idea that pop arts like comics should assume 'neutral' stances is complete baloney.

If comic creators want to do it, then comics should be allowed to reflect whatever the hell America feels, wrong or right, and to hell with whether or not it might seem short-sighted or wrong-headed later.

Maybe twenty years down the line it might be 'wrong' to have featured Bin Laden against Batman, but you know what, that's PERFECTLY OKAY, because those were the times and nobody needs to explain that.

Back in our parents' time, we had Fu Manchu stereotype Asian warlords and Communist super-apes. And most importantly, our grandparents grew up in a world where Captain America's FIRST appearance had him punching HITLER on the cover.
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I said this because it is my opinion that this is not just a matter of political correctness, it's a matter of art 'de-balling' itself by waiting for things to resolve themselves later.

Which is really ridiculous because it's easier to pass judgement on 'past current events' than it is to comment on them while they're happening. At least when you're doing a retro-active look at something, you can defend yourself with the benefit of hindsight. The reason why doing contemporary socio-political commentary 'too early' is actually gutsy because you risk being 'wrong', there's no hindsight as defense.

And making pop culture that means something isn't about whether that work is fair or right or just. It's about making stories that reflect something back to the people that matters.
 
ourchair said:
I agree. I hate quoting myself but I will anyway:I said this because it is my opinion that this is not just a matter of political correctness, it's a matter of art 'de-balling' itself by waiting for things to resolve themselves later.
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I agree.

Chickening out is a big problem too. People pull the plug on what they think may become a problem - too early and too often.

For one example: since Northstar was obviously set up as a gay guy with AIDS, that should have been allowed to play out. Later, that may be perceived as brave, or corny, or politically unacceptable in the way you thought it might be - OOO! A gay superhero, oh no! - or unacceptable in a way you didn't think of (gay stories should be more positive). But just do that story, let it stand and move on, and you've got a chance to do something that catches the spirit of the time, as Green Lantern and Green Arrow once did. Chicken out, chop and change, and you're not even giving it a roll of the dice.

ourchair said:
And making pop culture that means something isn't about whether that work is fair or right or just. It's about making stories that reflect something back to the people that matters.
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I think in the first place superheroes are about being bold, in a good way, but first of all bold.

If you're not hitting the golf-ball hard enough to run past the hole if it turns out your aim isn't as good as you hoped, you're rarely going to be hitting it hard enough to get it in the hole.

I shouldn't knock Miller too hard. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and the guy who wants to take on Hitler in 1947 or 1948 is a hero compared to those who want to keep hedging their bets even then.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

David Blue said:
I shouldn't knock Miller too hard. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, and the guy who wants to take on Hitler in 1947 or 1948 is a hero compared to those who want to keep hedging their bets even then.
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No, I don't think you're ragging on Miller at all.

I'm no big fan of his, but I find it silly that every single approach that Miller has taken to Batman post-DKR --- Strikes Again, All-Star --- has been unfairly scathed and maligned as if its somehow inconsistent with everything he has done before with the character.

And I suspect that this is because people assume that Miller has the same reverential attitude towards Batman that most comic fans do. Where fans see Batman as 'the self-made man' or 'the world-changer' or 'obssessive vigilante' as a figure of awesome character dimensions, I suspect Miller's fascination with the character is a lot more complex than that, even as he parades it around as a deceptively stupid-looking 'brain-damaged machismo' affair.

Memo to Batfans: Frank Miller does not masturbate with the fans.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

David Blue said:
Obviously Frank Miller can only bring out comics in future, he can't bring them out in the past. (Except within comics, through the magic of retroactive continuity.)

But, if you want to do something equivalent to Captain America punching Hitler in the face, then waiting till 2007 or 2008 to disrespect Osama in comics is a bit like waiting till 1947 or 1948 to disrespect Hitler.

Captain America went in sale in 1940, a year before Pearl Harbor, and the first issue had Captain America on the cover punching Adolph on the jaw.

That was timely. Actually it was Timely Comics, that was the company. That was bold and gutsy. It meant Cap really stood for something. Nobody today is up to that standard.
Click to expand...

E said:
I award you Post of the Day.
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Not to bring up the past, but I remain bitter that David Blue got this, considering I said it first:
ourchair said:
I really really really don't understand what the big deal would be about Al Qaeda vs. Batman.

Some people say it's politically correct, some say it's not right to mix the real world with the tights fantasy of superheroes. However, the idea that pop arts like comics should assume 'neutral' stances is complete baloney.

If comic creators want to do it, then comics should be allowed to reflect whatever the hell America feels, wrong or right, and to hell with whether or not it might seem short-sighted or wrong-headed later.

Maybe twenty years down the line it might be 'wrong' to have featured Bin Laden against Batman, but you know what, that's PERFECTLY OKAY, because those were the times and nobody needs to explain that.

Back in our parents' time, we had Fu Manchu stereotype Asian warlords and Communist super-apes. And most importantly, our grandparents grew up in a world where Captain America's FIRST appearance had him punching HITLER on the cover.
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It's probably because E discriminates against pedophiles. What a Nazi.
 
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Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

ourchair said:
Not to bring up the past, but I remain bitter that David Blue got this, considering I said it first:
It's probably because E discriminates against pedophiles. What a Nazi.
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I gave you one yesterday. Stop being such a woman.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

E said:
I gave you one yesterday. Stop being such a woman.
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Forgive me for letting my emotions take over. I would behave better if you would remind me what a 'wife' I am once in a while. It's very reassuring.
 
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Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

ourchair said:
Forgive me for letting my emotions take over. I would behave better if you would remind me what a 'wife' I am once in a while. It's very reassuring.
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GO MAKE ME A SAMMICH, *****.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

What the **** is Batman doing fighting Al Qaeda? Just because Al Qaeda are today's Nazis doesn't mean Batman should fight them. If anything, it should be Superman. Superman is the one who should go over there and kick their asses. He's got the power. What's Batman gonna do, fly over there in the Bat-plane and go find some terrorists and beat the crap out of them? And don't give me that "Batman will out-smart the terrorists" crap. Don't give me that stupid "If he has time, he can beat anyone" excuse. For Miller's sake I hope Batman steps on a land mine and dies. By the way, I'm not trying to insult the brave men and women in Iraq. I'm just saying, we've already got people like that to beat the **** out of the terrorists. We don't need Batman doing it. What, is Batman going to freakin' throw a batarang at a terrorist's face? Wtf. Al Qaeda is too grand of a scale for Batman. Why are Al Qaeda even coming to Gotham? Honestly. God, this whole idea is so stupid. I can't believe I'm still typing. Point is, they've got explosives, they've got bombs. Batman has....some armor and a cape and batarangs. It works with Captain America because he's a freakin' Super Soldier. That's why it works in the Ultimates. And the Ultimates are global. Batman is urban. He should only focus on Gotham. I don't know. Maybe I'm dense. Maybe I'm retarded or something. I mean, after all, he is the god-damn Batman.
 
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Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

This has probably been posted already, but "Holy Terror, Batman!" or whatever it's called is no longer going to be about Batman. :?
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

ProjectX2 said:
This has probably been posted already, but "Holy Terror, Batman!" or whatever it's called is no longer going to be about Batman. :?
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The title might seem misleading to some then.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

bluebeast said:
The title might seem misleading to some then.
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Batman has been removed from the title as well. Seems like it's completely unrelated now.
 
Re: Batman vs Al Qaeda - By Frank Miller

ProjectX2 said:
This has probably been posted already, but "Holy Terror, Batman!" or whatever it's called is no longer going to be about Batman. :?
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Yeah, I'd read that a few weeks ago. I'm disappointed, I was really looking forward to that. If for nothing else than the over-the-top, tongue in cheek approach I expected Miller to take with it (same as always basically). And seven years too late or not, there definitly would have been something extremely gratifying from seeing Batman punch Osama in the jaw like Cap did to Hitler almost 70 years ago...and then take it a step further and sodomize him with a rusty 24"x4" drill-bit. ;)
 
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