Fix the Ultimate Universe

[Zombipanda]

This would have to be planned really carefully for this work and I don't faith that Marvel would do that? Look at Pre Crisis DCU and what mess their multiverse created? Besides fans are going to ticked off if you just erase a universe that become attached to.

As long as sales are going strong on Ultimate books, Marvel won't pull the cord on the current UU, and it's my understanding that sales ARE good.

The multiverse thing isn't an issue. You just don't let the universes cross with each other. The problem with the multiverse is that we had multiple versions of the same characters, or characters from completely different universes, hopping across worlds willy-nilly.

The best way to do it would be to keep the Ultimate Universe, and instead create a new line. We'll call it "All-Star Marvel", for ease of use. You pass the reins over to your current all-star writers. I'd compare it to what DC did with 52. They take their four most prestigious writers (Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, Mark Waid, and Geoff Johns) and throw them all in a room together, and together the team hammers out a new universe, the goal of which is to stay true to the Marvel Universe, all the while creating a cohesive universe that works for a contemporary audience. And they give them a time table of, say, ten years to do it in. The audience goes into the line knowing this. Then they divvy up the books. Rucka gets All-Star Avengers, Waid gets All-Star Fantastic Four, Johns gets All-Star Spider-Man, and Morrison gets whatever the hell he wants because he's the king of everything. The universe stands on its own, never crossing over into either the UU, OR 616.

I'm all tingly now.... I totally want DC to buy out Marvel so this can happen.

Edit: How did I forget about X-Men? On second thought, Waid and Johns get X-Men and Fantastic Four, and Keith Giffen gets Spider-Man

 

[The Overlord]

There's a simple solution to that: Don't cross the universes over. Simply make an editorial decision that the original Ultimate universe will never cross over with other universes. You can have writers revisit it in miniseries' and such, but don't try to mix it.

What then all these other questions are going come up, if a new UU is create, how much of a connection will it have with the old UU. If the old UU is destroyed in favour of the new UU, won't tick off a lot of fans? And what if blunders occur in the new UU, will that universe be replaced with something else? This has the potenial to be a convoluted nightmare if not planned out really well, regardless of whether these these universe crossover or not. I think the cure your suggesting, may be worse than the disease.

 

[Zombipanda]

What then all these other questions are going come up, if a new UU is create, how much of a connection will it have with the old UU. If the old UU is destroyed in favour of the new UU, won't tick off a lot of fans? And what if blunders occur in the new UU, will that universe be replaced with something else? This has the potenial to be a convoluted nightmare if not planned out really well, regardless of whether these these universe crossover or not. I think the cure your suggesting, may be worse than the disease.

Look up above you.

 

[The Overlord]

As long as sales are going strong on Ultimate books, Marvel won't pull the cord on the current UU, and it's my understanding that sales ARE good.

The multiverse thing isn't an issue. You just don't let the universes cross with each other. The problem with the multiverse is that we had multiple versions of the same characters, or characters from completely different universes, hopping across worlds willy-nilly.

The best way to do it would be to keep the Ultimate Universe, and instead create a new line. We'll call it "All-Star Marvel", for ease of use. You pass the reins over to your current all-star writers. I'd compare it to what DC did with 52. They take their four most prestigious writers (Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, Mark Waid, and Geoff Johns) and throw them all in a room together, and together the team hammers out a new universe, the goal of which is to stay true to the Marvel Universe, all the while creating a cohesive universe that works for a contemporary audience. And they give them a time table of, say, ten years to do it in. The audience goes into the line knowing this. Then they divvy up the books. Rucka gets All-Star Avengers, Waid gets All-Star Fantastic Four, Johns gets All-Star Spider-Man, and Morrison gets whatever the hell he wants because he's the king of everything. The universe stands on its own, never crossing over into either the UU, OR 616.

I'm all tingly now.... I totally want DC to buy out Marvel so this can happen.

Edit: How did I forget about X-Men? On second thought, Waid and Johns get X-Men and Fantastic Four, and Keith Giffen gets Spider-Man

I see, you want an marvel version of the "All Star" concept. That could work, though I wouldn't use the term "All star" that's likely copy righted by DC. But that's a different than what we are discussing, this does nothing to fix the UU, that's what this topic is about. Also DC buying marvel would be bad, because that would create monoply and trust you would get screwed by this monoply.

 

[Zombipanda]

I see, you want an marvel version of the "All Star" concept.

Nope. The "All-Star" concept has writers writing stories outside of continuity. The goals of the two are completely different. All-Stars tell stories outside of continuity based on whatever whims the writer of the book has. They don't retain a consistent universe across the books, and they don't look to reinvent the characters.

That could work, though I wouldn't use the term "All star" that's likely copy righted by DC.

I used "All-Star" as a placeholder, because "Ultimate Universe 2" is just way too clunky.

But that's a different than what we are discussing, this does nothing to fix the UU, that's what this topic is about.

It does. E (I think it was E), made the statement that the only way to fix the Ultimate Universe would be to start from scratch. I agree. But since Marvel will keep selling UU books until they aren't financially successful, I'm saying, let the current UU run itself into the ground, and apply the basic tenets of the universe to a new imprint. That's the only financially and creatively feasible way to stay true to the ideas inherent to the concept.

Also DC buying marvel would be bad, because that would create monoply and trust you would get screwed by this monoply.

I always win at Monopoly.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

It does. E (I think it was E), made the statement that the only way to fix the Ultimate Universe would be to start from scratch. I agree. But since Marvel will keep selling UU books until they aren't financially successful, I'm saying, let the current UU run itself into the ground, and apply the basic tenets of the universe to a new imprint. That's the only financially and creatively feasible way to stay true to the ideas inherent to the concept.

Well, I think it would be easier to fix than that. It shouldn't be too hard for new writers to come in and make the books great again, which is all the UU needs to be "fixed."

That being said, the vast majority of Ultimate Spider-Man readers (I'm guessing from internet posts and reviews) seem to think the book is great. So, from Marvel's standpoint, everything's perfect.

 

[Zombipanda]

Well, I think it would be easier to fix than that. It shouldn't be too hard for new writers to come in and make the books great again, which is all the UU needs to be "fixed."

That being said, the vast majority of Ultimate Spider-Man readers (I'm guessing from internet posts and reviews) seem to think the book is great. So, from Marvel's standpoint, everything's perfect.

Putting good writers on will make the books good, sure, but I don't see that being the primary problem. I still enjoy UXM and UFF, and while my expectations aren't very high, we still haven't seen enough of Ultimates 3 to judge.

But the UU as a concept is buggered. The whole idea of the universe was to have a shared setting with a continuity with common themes and a non-convoluted history. So far, we have a shoddy portrayal of various characters across books, a number of glaring continuity errors, and Ultimate Power (not to mention, at least one big crossover with Bendis onboard that's allegedly coming down the pipeline). Put on good writers and the individual books may turn out very good, but the damage is already done. The only way to heal the universe as a whole is to take large swaths of the UU's continuity and just write them out of existence.

The only way Marvel could have prevented this from happening would have been to set guidelines for the universe, and establish a protocol for all the UU writers to work together in tandem. They didn't, and there's no way you can go back and fix that now.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Putting good writers on will make the books good, sure, but I don't see that being the primary problem. I still enjoy UXM and UFF, and while my expectations aren't very high, we still haven't seen enough of Ultimates 3 to judge.

But the UU as a concept is buggered. The whole idea of the universe was to have a shared setting with a continuity with common themes and a non-convoluted history. So far, we have a shoddy portrayal of various characters across books, a number of glaring continuity errors, and Ultimate Power (not to mention, at least one big crossover with Bendis onboard that's allegedly coming down the pipeline). Put on good writers and the individual books may turn out very good, but the damage is already done. The only way to heal the universe as a whole is to take large swaths of the UU's continuity and just write them out of existence.

The only way Marvel could have prevented this from happening would have been to set guidelines for the universe, and establish a protocol for all the UU writers to work together in tandem. They didn't, and there's no way you can go back and fix that now.

Well, good writers and good continuity should go hand in hand. And any history will get slightly convoluted over time. The trick is to keep it easily explainable, which I think they have, and actually explain it when it comes up.

Just because point A to point B is a little messed up doesn't mean point B to point C can't get it back in line. I think it would be a mistake to go back to point A without giving point C a chance.

It certainly seems like continuity is a bit of an issue lately, at least in regards to Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk, which has a firm placement in both Ultimates and Ultimate X-Men. It just can't come out on time. But when it does come out, we know where it's supposed to be. Vaughan's UXM run fit in references to where it takes place in relation to Ultimates and Ultimate Nightmare. And it seems like Carey respects continuity too.

Look, every person here knows what (who!) the biggest problem is with the Ultimate Universe these days.

 

[The Overlord]

Nope. The "All-Star" concept has writers writing stories outside of continuity. The goals of the two are completely different. All-Stars tell stories outside of continuity based on whatever whims the writer of the book has. They don't retain a consistent universe across the books, and they don't look to reinvent the characters.



I used "All-Star" as a placeholder, because "Ultimate Universe 2" is just way too clunky.



It does. E (I think it was E), made the statement that the only way to fix the Ultimate Universe would be to start from scratch. I agree. But since Marvel will keep selling UU books until they aren't financially successful, I'm saying, let the current UU run itself into the ground, and apply the basic tenets of the universe to a new imprint. That's the only financially and creatively feasible way to stay true to the ideas inherent to the concept.



I always win at Monopoly.

That doesn't address the problems I brought up before, if you keep on creating and destroying these universes whenever blunders occur ( and they will occur) won't that tick off fans who have emotional invested in these universes? What's to stop an "All Star" Chuck Austen's X-men from occuring, say if one the better creators leaves the book or is unavailable. Your plan is not practical, it can't substain itself over the long term.

 

[Zombipanda]

That doesn't address the problems I brought up before, if you keep on creating and destroying these universes whenever blunders occur ( and they will occur) won't that tick off fans who have emotional invested in these universes? What's to stop an "All Star" Chuck Austen's X-men from occuring, say if one the better creators leaves the book or is unavailable. Your plan is not practical, it can't substain itself over the long term.

There's two principal points that prevent this from happening.

The first is that you establish a dialogue between all these creators from day one. Each of the creative teams works in conjunction with each other, planning out where the books begin, and where they're going from the start. While they can't plan everything to the exact letter, they at least have a feeling for where the books are going to end up, and you have to foster this sense of creative universe building by sustaining these meetings. The principal problem of the Ultimate Universe is that all the writers were basically sent off to do their own thing, with only occassional communication. You put all your All-Stars under one editor, make sure they're hammered out, and have internal meetings of the "All-Star" staff. While this won't completely prevent any blunders from occuring, it will DRASTICALLY minimize them.

Second, it depends on what you mean by the long term. Sure, this system won't work indefinitely, but then again, it's not intended to. The point of the Ultimate Universe is to provide a view of the Marvel universe that appeals to a contemporary audience. As such, a single Ultimate Universe will NEVER be able to continue indefinitely, because after 10 or 15 years, these series' will look aged and retro. That's just the nature of the beast. That's why you set up a five or ten year plan for the books, and when it's done, you write a conclusion to them, wrap up the universe and reboot with a set of fresh new all-star writers.

I'm suggesting simply two things. One is that the creative teams need to be tightly knit, with a strong sense of communication. Make sure all the writers are in the same boat and working under the same editorial umbrella. Second, I'm suggesting that the books have a general structure in mind, and an established span of of time before they reach their conclusion.

I think these address the two problems that the UU is looking to solve. A more neatly integrated world will prevent the continuity errors and blunders that make the 616 universe intimidating, and the limited time frame insures that the books will never become outdated or bogged down by too much continuity.

 

[SSJmole]

The original Secret War wasn't that good, so what makes you think that an Ultimate one would be better?

Because Ultimates , Spider-men , some X-men , fantastic 4 and more together would bring together all the creative minds of the UU. All of them together and have it greatly effect all the comics = will work.

 

[Foolsfolly]

Because Ultimates , Spider-men , some X-men , fantastic 4 and more together would bring together all the creative minds of the UU. All of them together and have it greatly effect all the comics = will work.

Yeah? Sounds like Ultimate Power....why don't we stay away from Ultimate Secret War.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

Yeah? Sounds like Ultimate Power....why don't we stay away from Ultimate Secret War.

exactly my point.

 

[E]

There's two principal points that prevent this from happening.

The first is that you establish a dialogue between all these creators from day one. Each of the creative teams works in conjunction with each other, planning out where the books begin, and where they're going from the start. While they can't plan everything to the exact letter, they at least have a feeling for where the books are going to end up, and you have to foster this sense of creative universe building by sustaining these meetings. The principal problem of the Ultimate Universe is that all the writers were basically sent off to do their own thing, with only occassional communication. You put all your All-Stars under one editor, make sure they're hammered out, and have internal meetings of the "All-Star" staff. While this won't completely prevent any blunders from occuring, it will DRASTICALLY minimize them.

Second, it depends on what you mean by the long term. Sure, this system won't work indefinitely, but then again, it's not intended to. The point of the Ultimate Universe is to provide a view of the Marvel universe that appeals to a contemporary audience. As such, a single Ultimate Universe will NEVER be able to continue indefinitely, because after 10 or 15 years, these series' will look aged and retro. That's just the nature of the beast. That's why you set up a five or ten year plan for the books, and when it's done, you write a conclusion to them, wrap up the universe and reboot with a set of fresh new all-star writers.

I'm suggesting simply two things. One is that the creative teams need to be tightly knit, with a strong sense of communication. Make sure all the writers are in the same boat and working under the same editorial umbrella. Second, I'm suggesting that the books have a general structure in mind, and an established span of of time before they reach their conclusion.

I think these address the two problems that the UU is looking to solve. A more neatly integrated world will prevent the continuity errors and blunders that make the 616 universe intimidating, and the limited time frame insures that the books will never become outdated or bogged down by too much continuity.

Not only that, but by FIRMLY establishing what will happen and how it will happen ahead of time, it almost doesn't matter who is writing. It allows some up-and-comers to make a bigger name for themselves. Let the writers work out the details. Plan things ahead of time. Don't announce a 12-issue arc by someone who seems to have less than a passing interest in writing (so much so that he would use ghost writers) then delay it further and further. Tighter editorial control would eliminate stupid mistakes in continuity.

And yes, I'm saying that the best way to save the UU is to get rid of it. Blow the whole thing up in some huge cosmic event or something, and start from scratch. Heroes Reborn was drastic but it needed to be. The same idea can apply here.

 

[The Overlord]

Not only that, but by FIRMLY establishing what will happen and how it will happen ahead of time, it almost doesn't matter who is writing. It allows some up-and-comers to make a bigger name for themselves. Let the writers work out the details. Plan things ahead of time. Don't announce a 12-issue arc by someone who seems to have less than a passing interest in writing (so much so that he would use ghost writers) then delay it further and further. Tighter editorial control would eliminate stupid mistakes in continuity.

And yes, I'm saying that the best way to save the UU is to get rid of it. Blow the whole thing up in some huge cosmic event or something, and start from scratch. Heroes Reborn was drastic but it needed to be. The same idea can apply here.

Heroes Reborn was not needed at all, no one needs a revamp of Captain America where Rob Liefeld gives him breasts. The only reboot that was ever needed in comics was Crisis on Infinite Earths, but after that DC always seems to reboot their universe 5 years or so (Zero Hero was not needed at all). If you think the UU is even half as messed up as Pre crisis DCU, then you would be dead wrong. Also look at what a mess these reboots have made of some characters, can anyone explain Hawkman anymore? This would have to planned out really well to work.

 

[E]

Heroes Reborn was not needed at all, no one needs a revamp of Captain America where Rob Liefeld gives him breasts. The only reboot that was ever needed in comics was Crisis on Infinite Earths, but after that DC always seems to reboot their universe 5 years or so (Zero Hero was not needed at all). If you think the UU is even half as messed up as Pre crisis DCU, then you would be dead wrong. Also look at what a mess these reboots have made of some characters, can anyone explain Hawkman anymore? This would have to planned out really well to work.

I didn't say it was needed.

 

[The Overlord]

I didn't say it was needed.

Then what were you saying? You said: "Heroes Reborn was drastic but it needed to be. The same idea can apply here." Personally I don't think anything that gives Cap breasts is needed.

Edit: I hope you don't think I am trying to insult, because that is not intended to do. I just want some clarification in regards to your arguement.

 

[Zombipanda]

Heroes Reborn was not needed at all, no one needs a revamp of Captain America where Rob Liefeld gives him breasts. The only reboot that was ever needed in comics was Crisis on Infinite Earths, but after that DC always seems to reboot their universe 5 years or so (Zero Hero was not needed at all). If you think the UU is even half as messed up as Pre crisis DCU, then you would be dead wrong. Also look at what a mess these reboots have made of some characters, can anyone explain Hawkman anymore? This would have to planned out really well to work.

The problem with CoIE is that it was a sloppy reboot. The post-Crisis universe wasn't held under well enough editorial control, the reimaginings of the characters were spread over too prolonged a period, and too many writers tried to tie in as many pre-Crisis aspects of the character, forgetting the critical point of the Crisis in the first place.

The problem with the UU in the first place is it wasn't planned all that well. I'm not saying it wouldn't require some work, but just saying "Oh, it would have to be planned well" isn't an argument against it.

 

[E]

Then what were you saying? You said: "Heroes Reborn was drastic but it needed to be. The same idea can apply here." Personally I don't think anything that gives Cap breasts is needed.

Edit: I hope you don't think I am trying to insult, because that is not intended to do. I just want some clarification in regards to your arguement.

I meant that for what it was supposed to accomplish, it had to be huge. As for the event itself, not really needed. It was just done to boost sales, not like CoIE which was needed to fix major problems.

And Liefeld's Cap Boobs definitely weren't needed.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

The problem with CoIE is that it was a sloppy reboot. The post-Crisis universe wasn't held under well enough editorial control, the reimaginings of the characters were spread over too prolonged a period, and too many writers tried to tie in as many pre-Crisis aspects of the character, forgetting the critical point of the Crisis in the first place.

The problem with the UU in the first place is it wasn't planned all that well. I'm not saying it wouldn't require some work, but just saying "Oh, it would have to be planned well" isn't an argument against it.

The saddest thing about it is, it only had two writers for the longest time. They could've easily made it fit perfectly. It doesn't help that they waste the introduction of the most important team in the Marvel Universe on a one-off joke issue, then follow that up by an appearance in the USM Summer Special before rebooting the concept entirely.

If you're not willing to stick with what you use, don't use it! I won't even comment on UIM.

(Although I do think UFF is better than the 616 retread we might've had.)