Emma Frost: A Fraud

[jtg3885]

Intriguing, and I wouldn't mind that being the heart of the matter.

But IMHO, that paints a portrait of Xavier being FAR more sinister the Ultimate editors would seem to allow, not to mention more sinister than even Millar has portrayed him to be.

He spies on the students, may or may not be manipulating them all, is at least three stages into a grand plan that somehow involved letting the government take partial control of his school... he's now twice let the public think a mutant has died while really executing his own agenda... I don't really put anything past him...

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

To address the first point, we all know that characters in the Ultimate Universe has been shuffled. Assuming Emma was being honest (admitting telepathic powers would have gotten her chucked out on her *** because of Xavier's history with the White House), this could be another Black Widow or Iron Man.

To address the second point... so? We've also seen a much darker Xavier compared to the original portrayal. Does that mean he's been replaced by a shapeshifter too?

Both of my points were speculation, mind you...

There are a variety of reasons her brain could be protected by unusual mental blocks... The Government has the capability to use these locks, as demonstrated by Fury... But if they were acting without Fury, I'd be pretty damn sure that that wouldn't be it. It would be Weapon X's technology. If the superiors of Dr. Cornelius are actually extensions of the Mutant Terrorist movement, they would have the technology to place the Psychic blocks used by the top brass when Wraith was the man in charge. Another piece of evidence I have for thinking that Weapon X is not acting of its own accord is that Deathstrike wasn't a mutant. If Magneto rips her to peices with his abilities, he won't be sacrificing the life of his fellow mutantkind. The other possibility is that the Psychics in the Brotherhood who were not transferred to Camp X-Factor are helping her, but i'm much more keen on a Conspiracy.

Its also possible that Xavier is more honest than you're making him out to be. He says its intrusive to read his friends' minds, so he doesn't. Surely a former lover and pupil has earned that respect from him. I bet he didn't push it. He doesn't want to listen to how much he hurt her when they split up, does he? And her animosity was honest, even if she's Mystique. Mystique and Charlie were lovers, remember?

Emma is very vehement about her methods and beliefs being different from Xavier's... anyone else thing Xavier himself may have a hand in this? After all, he has his fingers in practically everybody's heads. When he and Emma split up, I don't see it as out of character for him to have gone into her mind, and ensured that she would not be a recruiting threat to him. She's now attracting a totally different crop of students, ones that (with exceptions like Alex) Xavier wouldn't want anyways. While there would inevitably be some overlap of interests, he has ensured that there is no real recruiting threat to the paramilitary force that he's building at his school. Mutants who flock to Emma's Peace Corps would hardly be the type to join his Army, no?

Xavier is being written as a man who does what he thinks is necessary to make the world better, not what he thinks is necessary to make his life easier. He's not going to mess with her mind to that level, if he was he would have done the same to Moira, who obviously still hates him. She runs her extension of the Xavier Institute because she's helping those who need it, including (until recently) her son. She has a connection to that work, and that isn't mind-meddling.

How is she attracting students who Xavier, or Magneto wouldn't want? She has recruited to her top class only students who have strong feelings against the Xavier institute, or those within. Roberto Dacosta is a fighter, he fights for the Mutantkind he feels is ignored by the X-Men. Lorna Dane might very well be the daughter of Magneto. Jean-Paul has been shot point-blank by a genetically enhanced HUMAN who was targeting mutants, and already is prejudiced against the norm because of his homosexuality. These aren't Peace-loving kids, these are people who are being gathered together to build their hatred of humans, and normality, and the X-Men.

Oh, and they didn't flock. They were invited. (as we know from Dacosta)

Also, I think J got you, Strangefate, with that comment that said if we've got a different kind of Xavier, does that mean he's being replaced by a shapeshifter, too.

Hurm...

Well here, let me put it this way. 616 and UU Charles Xavier want exactly the same thing, and are going about two entirely different ways of getting there.

Every ultimatization thusfar has had similar, or identical goals, or motivations as their originals... Except Emma Frost (and maybe Carnage, but I suspect he'll turn out to be the Ultimate Peter Clone, in which his goal IS the same: Become Peter Parker). Emma Frost believes that humans and mutants can interact and be friendly, and she thinks of herself, and her goals, over others... UU Emma has been idyllically selfless. Laughably, almost. Her ideas of peaceful coexistance are sometimes rediculous. You don't send people to a fire and say that they should only save peoples lives if they're asked to... That whole role seems forced. The only point we've seen her have emotion is A) at the death of a fellow mutant, and B) yelling at Charlie.

I still say that she's an imposter. And I still suspect Mystique...

 

[Ice]

DSF, although I may not believe that Emma is Mystique, that is one hell on an argument you put up. Strong enough that its possible to persuade. Hell, you almost have me at your point.

 

[jtg3885]

How is she attracting students who Xavier, or Magneto wouldn't want? She has recruited to her top class only students who have strong feelings against the Xavier institute, or those within. Roberto Dacosta is a fighter, he fights for the Mutantkind he feels is ignored by the X-Men. Lorna Dane might very well be the daughter of Magneto. Jean-Paul has been shot point-blank by a genetically enhanced HUMAN who was targeting mutants, and already is prejudiced against the norm because of his homosexuality. These aren't Peace-loving kids, these are people who are being gathered together to build their hatred of humans, and normality, and the X-Men.

There are humans there at the school. Remember, it's for gifted people of all sorts, not just mutants. She points that out.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

He spies on the students, may or may not be manipulating them all, is at least three stages into a grand plan that somehow involved letting the government take partial control of his school... he's now twice let the public think a mutant has died while really executing his own agenda... I don't really put anything past him...

Manipulating a person's mind to make sure that they stay friendly after a breakup, and manipulating a person's mind to make sure they stay friendly after they just sent an army of sentinels to decimate Washington DC, and had a naked President of the US cowering under a car poised to crush his human body, are ENTIRELY different situations...

He believes that Erik will one day come around to his way of seeing things, as he said to Jean at the end of Weapon X, and will be standing with him side-by-side. He also didn't want his friend to die. Was there another alternative?

And his plan is Human and Mutant cooperation. The fact that the Xavier Institute filled the vacancy once filled by Weapon X is a HUGE step towards that....

(BTW- who is the second mutant he let other people think was dead?)

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

There are humans there at the school. Remember, it's for gifted people of all sorts, not just mutants. She points that out.

She also tells him not to call himself a mutant. He tells her to think he's a person. The entire point of the school is thinking yourself as better than anyone else. If everyone there are actually mutants, which we don't know, then they're just separating themselves from mundane humankind.

There's also the chance that since this is a FRONT, the real point of the school is her special task-force, which IS solely mutants.

I remind you that this is ALL speculation.

 

[jtg3885]

Manipulating a person's mind to make sure that they stay friendly after a breakup, and manipulating a person's mind to make sure they stay friendly after they just sent an army of sentinels to decimate Washington DC, and had a naked President of the US cowering under a car poised to crush his human body, are ENTIRELY different situations...

I never said friendly. I said that he manipulated her mind to ensure she wouldn't be a threat to the paramilitary force he was creating, which is on the same level of manipulating the government. Either way, he's working to ensure his agenda proceeds.

(BTW- who is the second mutant he let other people think was dead?)

The two-headed freak in the one-shot issue a few issues back.

And if Emma = Mystique, and Lorna was somehow groomed to assist Erik in breaking out, why did Emmatique bring her to the government's attention in the first place? It would have been much easier to keep her locked away privately, and then BAMM.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I never said friendly. I said that he manipulated her mind to ensure she wouldn't be a threat to the paramilitary force he was creating, which is on the same level of manipulating the government. Either way, he's working to ensure his agenda proceeds.


The two-headed freak in the one-shot issue a few issues back.

And if Emma = Mystique, and Lorna was somehow groomed to assist Erik in breaking out, why did Emmatique bring her to the government's attention in the first place? It would have been much easier to keep her locked away privately, and then BAMM.

They wouldn't be in the same room to amp eachother's power's then, would they?

 

[jtg3885]

I meant, why introduce her in New Mutants? Why not just wait until now, then throw her under the metaphorical bus so SHIELD picks her up and takes her to Erik?

 

[Goodwill]

But that's the scary thing about Mutanity in the UU. Its only been really public for a short period of time, and they REALLY don't know the science of it.

Putting two human beings in the same cell isn't that big of a deal, as long as they aren't killing each other, and when you need to contain two people with the same powers, and there's only one containment field... What else are you going to do? Put Lorna in a Normal cell? Break international law and basically stun her into complacency for the MONTHS it would take to build another one of these things? Kill her for not being able to control herself?

They'll put them together because they have to, not because they want to.

This is what I found so fascinating about the new story. Going along with Vaughan's Magneto with the chess metaphor, with this new Polaris situation, SHIELD's been put in between a rock and a hardplace. A stalemate, if you will. We'll have to see what direction this will take the rest of the arc, but it does not bode well if this is the story where Magneto is going to escape.

I do suspect, because of this, we'll see more Emma Frost, but in what condition, I don't know. Perhaps she was waiting for something like this to happen so that she can see how the X-Men play their cards... Perhaps, Emma, not as Mystique, but as herslef, has struck a deal with Magneto. Luring Polaris onto her team was all part of a plan. We'll have to see, though, I'm not completely convinced she's guilty.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I meant, why introduce her in New Mutants? Why not just wait until now, then throw her under the metaphorical bus so SHIELD picks her up and takes her to Erik?

Because Bendis wanted to introduce lots and lots of new characters, and Vaughn is doing the best he could to make it interesting.

 

[Russian Tank]

I gotta confess, I really did think Emma seemed much more sincere than I had expected. I thought she'd be a bit more harsh and strict woman. Seeing her more peaceful kind of makes me feel unnatural.

 

[DigiEmissary]

They wouldn't be in the same room to amp eachother's power's then, would they?

That would actually be really cool if they became some kind of human railgun or something.

 

[Caduceus]

Xavier's Cat was named after someone named Mystique. While it still could be Mystique, the shapeshifter's powers aren't all inclusive, she keeps the same body mass in all forms.... That'd be one HEAVY cat...

And I really doubt they'd change that important limitation on Mystique's powers...

They did in Evo, I believe, but I doubt they will do that here.

It would take months to build another cell like Magneto's, what they're going to have to do is put them in the same general room... Polaris needs to be contained immediately. And What I'm guessing is that Magneto can use her abilities to amplify his own, in a similar way to the Flash taking the speed of other racers to run faster... Thats when he'll escape. I'm sure they'll put a separator or something in the cell, but they do NOT have duplicate anti-magnetism cells to use on a whim... They won't know that Mag's can use her to amplify his own abilities... How could they?

That actually ties in to 616 as well where Magneto was using Polaris on Genosha at one stage. I'm not sure about how long it would take to build a cell, considering that they seemed to have knocked one out for Magneto pretty quick. But then, they could have built it before, so thats not really important.

As for Mystique's former relationship with Charles, all we know is that they dated. The fact that they are NOT still together indicates that perhaps he left her when he escaped the Savage Land that night. If so, her loyalty was to Magneto, not Charles. I admit that this is speculation, but from Moira AND "Emma" we have seen that Xavier's former Lovers are not big fans of the baldy. When "Emma Frost" met with Xavier, her feelings of frustration and animosity were real, and his being polite would prevent him from looking further into his brain. Charles Xavier, not being an evil man, doesnt meddle in minds of his equals. He will do it to his students, sure, to make them cooperate (remember his conversation with Cyke, when he left for the Savage Land?), but only his equals in extreme situations, he didn't Instantly realize that Fury's mental blocks were there until he was withholding information from charles.... I refuse to see Charles as someone who is selfishly using his abilities. He is trying to make the world a better place, but he does what he feels is necessary...

I'm better informed (God bless online summaries) and I can see what you were going at with the Mystique/Xavier thing.

But, when Xavier met with Emma, she wasn't just an equal, she was the competition. He was trying to get her to stay at the school and I think that he wouldn't have been above taking a peek to know just what he could say that would sway her and have the most impact. That said, Emma did not stay at the school so perhaps he didn't.

As for the coordination requiring higher ups in the Government... We know that Weapon X is back in action, we don't know who they're working for. This person, or persons, could have organized Emma Frost coming to meet the president... We know that that wasn't SHIELD. Fury already has his Mutants, he doesn't need more. And Cornelius is too smart a man to think that Deathstrike could take down Wolverine, her being put in the Triskelion, and that being so clearly mentioned at the beginning of the first part of this arc, convinces me of its importance.

Again, better informed so I'm agreeing with you that its a significant part of the arc. The only problem with starting to blame Weapon X for it is that brings in another government agency that Mystique would have had to manipulate to get this all set up. Its doubtful Weapon X would set up a public team, since the philosophy behind using mutants is that it doesn't matter if you make them do bad things because they aren't human. Its not impossible and there's probably a way around it I haven't thought of, but its starting to stretch credibility for what one person (Mystique) can do.

More later... (i'm supposed to be working )

Psh. Work is for the weak.

 

[Goodwill]

Because Bendis wanted to introduce lots and lots of new characters, and Vaughn is doing the best he could to make it interesting.

I think our real problem here is Bendis... This is all, somehow, reverting back to Polaris' first appearance as well as Emma's so that Strangefate's theory can be consistant, but I imagine Bendis only introducing them to introduce them. There was never anything thought to have Mystique poise as Emma back then, you see? IF this all were to pan out, with Emma being Mystique, it's Vaughan mending the fences a little too much.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

I think our real problem here is Bendis... This is all, somehow, reverting back to Polaris' first appearance as well as Emma's so that Strangefate's theory can be consistant, but I imagine Bendis only introducing them to introduce them. There was never anything thought to have Mystique poise as Emma back then, you see? IF this all were to pan out, with Emma being Mystique, it's Vaughan mending the fences a little too much.

So you're arguing that Vaughn fixing things is a bad thing?

And in comic books, if you weren't able to go back and reveal the motivations of characters written by other writers on the title, you wouldn't have HALF of the stories that are out there today.

Bendis might not have intended that, but that doesnt mean it doesnt work.

 

[Goodwill]

Oh, I'm not saying that, but it would be a strain on the stories to go back and explain everything and, even for Vaughan, that would be a difficult feat. If the cat turned out to be Mystique, I see there being little conflict compared to Emma turning out to be. What I'm saying, I guess, is that your theory would take far too much time to play out in the four issues that we have left with all that's been said is happening in the arc before.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Oh, I'm not saying that, but it would be a strain on the stories to go back and explain everything and, even for Vaughan, that would be a difficult feat. If the cat turned out to be Mystique, I see there being little conflict compared to Emma turning out to be. What I'm saying, I guess, is that your theory would take far too much time to play out in the four issues that we have left with all that's been said is happening in the arc before.

I think if Vaughn can pull it off well, and I do think he could, It would be FAR more interesting to have Emma Frost as Mystique...

 

[Goodwill]

Right, but to introduce a character only to have that character turn out to be an imposter is a huge cop out... I don't know if I would like an entire character thrown out the window for another character to get introduced. I mean, that's what would happen in your perfect world, Strangefate. The Emma that we knew wouldn't be the Emma that we expected, so her character would have to be thrown out the window and the new Mystique would have to be fleshed out from the moment she reveals herself. That's too much.

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Right, but to introduce a character only to have that character turn out to be an imposter is a huge cop out... I don't know if I would like an entire character thrown out the window for another character to get introduced. I mean, that's what would happen in your perfect world, Strangefate. The Emma that we knew wouldn't be the Emma that we expected, so her character would have to be thrown out the window and the new Mystique would have to be fleshed out from the moment she reveals herself. That's too much.

I'm saying that Emma Frost exists, but that the one we've met isn't the real one. But that doesnt make the things we know about Emma untrue. She's playing a character, but the character DOES exist.

You read Harry Potter, right? Its what they did with Mad Eye Moony. When they introduced the real thing, all of the character development that was done with the fraud still applied, but the fraud became a new character. Its the same concept.

Its not unheard of to do something like this...