Do you read Loeb's Hulk?

[Bass]

Uh, well... He pretty much has said that's the case in interview.

David Mack said that his NEW AVENGERS issue that had Echo fighting Skrulls had a distinctive Adam Hughes style because Skrulls impersonate people so since this is a whole "Skrull impersonating people" storyline, his art is 'impersonating' Adam Hughes.

The truth is, the guy just lightboxed Adam's GEN 13: ORDINARY HEROES, then came up with an artsy reason to justify it. Sounds the same to me here because there was none of this metafictional nonsense in the title. He just made Superboy 'eeeeevil' and is trying to make him seem like a legitimate, intelligent experiment that failed, when he isn't at all. I can't believe Johns missed the mark that much.

Really, I'd like to get a look at those numbers. Somehow I doubt Hulk has sold all that consistently in the last thirty years. For that matter, I'm curious to see what its numbers are like in comparison to Planet Hulk or World War Hulk. I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm not sure you're right. I'd love to really isolate why it's selling so well, though, because it really really baffles me.

My meaning is that the only reason Hulk is popular and selling is because of something cool that happened 30 years ago with the same name.

Like STAR WARS.

STAR WARS sells better now than it ever did. But that's because it's riding on the coat tails of 2 awesome hours in the summer of '77.

I dunno. When I read comics this bad, I just find an excuse to hate every damn thing about everything ever.

 

[Zombipanda]

David Mack said that his NEW AVENGERS issue that had Echo fighting Skrulls had a distinctive Adam Hughes style because Skrulls impersonate people so since this is a whole "Skrull impersonating people" storyline, his art is 'impersonating' Adam Hughes.

The truth is, the guy just lightboxed Adam's GEN 13: ORDINARY HEROES, then came up with an artsy reason to justify it. Sounds the same to me here because there was none of this metafictional nonsense in the title. He just made Superboy 'eeeeevil' and is trying to make him seem like a legitimate, intelligent experiment that failed, when he isn't at all. I can't believe Johns missed the mark that much.

When you say "there was none of this metafictional nonsense" in the title, which story do you mean?

Because, in his defense, Johns has been spouting that kind of metafictional commentary **** about Superboy-Prime since the criticism of Infinite Crisis first hit. I guess it's distinctly possible that it was a sort of knee-jerk response to a wave of criticism following a pretty lackluster book and the following years of Johns constantly dragging Superboy-Prime out of the toy box has basically been Johns trying to be like "See? I had a plan after all!". Personally, I don't think that's the case. I just think Johns isn't good with those kinds of stories. I think he's too attached to his characters. A better writer would see the sort of poor response he was getting from the character, recognize it as a failed experiment, and just cut the cord.

When it comes to missing the mark, I feel like he's just been digging himself into a hole. Johns just kept doubling up and doubling up and didn't know when to just cut his losses and back off from the table.

My meaning is that the only reason Hulk is popular and selling is because of something cool that happened 30 years ago with the same name.

Like STAR WARS.

STAR WARS sells better now than it ever did. But that's because it's riding on the coat tails of 2 awesome hours in the summer of '77.

You say that as if Empire wasn't a better movie anyway. I'm not sure I can agree with you there. Star Wars had a vastly more profound impact than the Hulk TV show ever did. I doubt the target audience for Rulk crosses over all that much with people who have nostalgia for the old TV series. You might argue that Hulk has staying power because of the inherent allegory of rage appeals to people on a raw and intuitive level. More likely, Hulk remains popular because people like seeing a big green dude smash **** up.

If anything, I think Hulk's continued success owes more to Michael Bay than it does to Lou Ferrigno.

For the record, while the show was fun, I don't think there was anything all that mind-blowing about it. But that may just be an issue of me growing up well after it had aged.

I dunno. When I read comics this bad, I just find an excuse to hate every damn thing about everything ever.

Heh.... Well, I mean, to my knowledge, it's not like there's a whole lot of amazing Hulk stories floating around. Peter David's stuff was kind of cool, but beyond that, my mind draws a blank.

I was just looking at a thread someone started where the discussion is "List your favorite stories for X Marvel character/team" and I just kept drawing blanks. I'm sure that my lack of knowledge of the characters is partly at fault; but I think it's also that, most of these characters don't have stories that are all that iconic.

 

[fenway]

Its funny you say that - Part of my reason for starting the thread was to see if some stories were regularly considered the 'best', or, 'iconic' by this group of people.

Selfish, really, but a way to direct reading I've missed

 

[Iceshadow]

Savage She-Hulk is the one working for ARMOR, not Jen. Lyra will also show up in Pak's new book. Also, Marvel Divas is before Hulk #600 and Jen isn't part of the regular cast anyway(it was only a cameo).

Edit:

@ProjectX2: Yes i did.

Yeah but She-Hulk was free-lancing for them when she gets called in to take out Lyra.

 

[thee great one]

Superboy-Prime is not that terrible. I think he is a pretty good and scary villain.

 

[Zombipanda]

If you're going to go, "WHO IS THE RED HULK?" and then answer another mystery and say it's more important, you don't know what you're doing.

Surely, if the whole Gamma-Cap conspiracy is more important, why not MAKE THAT THE MYSTERY? To ask a question, reveal something no one asked then act like you've given away a big plot point not only doesn't pay off what you set your story up with, but undermines a potential plot point.

Heh. Well, this is kind of Loeb's MO, even in his "good" stories (i.e. Hush, Long Halloween). You present a "mystery" at the beginning, then you spend the successive issues pitting the hero against inconsequential characters that have no bearing on the "mystery" and don't reveal anything (preferably one per issue), and then at the end, you reveal the 'mystery', which is completely manufactured by Loeb in the first place and really isn't a mystery at all.

Here's the Loeb diagram to mystery writing.

Question->Fight->Fight->Fight->Fight->Fight.....->Fight->Answer

 

[thee great one]

I like how Doom put once. That Loeb is the name dropper for comics. He likes cameos, no matter how out of place they might be. Every work he has ever done is full of characters that are just there for the sake of being there.

 

[ProjectX2]

Superboy-Prime is not that terrible. I think he is a pretty good and scary villain.

He's not as bad as Red Hulk but Johns really needs to give him a rest. I liked him showing up in Sinestro Corps War but the fact that he was in Legion of 3 Worlds (which should have been the end of his story) and is now still going to be in Adventure Comics is a bit ridiculous. Move on.

 

[thee great one]

I thought that Legion Of 3 Worlds was suppose to this 3 trilogy thing with it being the 3rd part of the Legion story and the 3rd part of the Superboy Prime story. And the 3 Legions.

 

[moonmaster]

Superboy Prime's biggest problem is that you can't make a huge, ominous villain, and then keep bringing them back at the drop of a hat. It lessens their impact.

Hence why it was such a ridiculous mistake to bring back Cassandra Nova.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Superboy-Prime is emo.

 

[ProjectX2]

Superboy Prime's biggest problem is that you can't make a huge, ominous villain, and then keep bringing them back at the drop of a hat. It lessens their impact.

Hence why it was such a ridiculous mistake to bring back Cassandra Nova.

Are you referring to her return in Astonishing X-Men or did she return again after that? I remember liking that story.

 

[Seldes Katne]

She [Jen Walters] also had a guest role in the recent Savage She-Hulk mini that just wrapped up (which I thought was pretty good) where she was working for A.R.M.O.R.

A.R.M.O.R.? Really? That's the second time A.R.M.O.R. has been linked with a character of interest. I'll have to track down that mini-series when I get a few minutes. Thanks, Iceshadow.

I personally think that a Mary Sue can be written well. If you have a story revolve around a character, just make the story and character well worth reading. Like for instance, Nanoha from Magical Lyrical Nanoha.

As I understand it, "Mary Sue" is a derogatory term for a character that is basically too good to be true, within the previously-established context of the story or universe. It's certainly possible to write a great story that revolves around a character, but that character really shouldn't be super-strong, super-smart, super-gorgeous, unbeatable, always right, and essentially flawless.

In original fiction, it's easier to set up your characters and their universe to allow for super-whatever-ness, but once you've established those rules, you still need to stick to them, or have a believable reason for why this one character can break them. In a universe like Marvel's, a lot of the ground rules have been previously established, and a character that comes out of nowhere and breaks the rules for no reason other than because the author wants it that way really does not work.

One characteristic of a Mary Sue is that only the author really likes him/her. Everyone else just complains that Mary Sue is detracting from the other characters, the ones people really want to read about. (One classic example is the American Exchange Student found in Harry Potter fanfiction.) I've read enough commentary and talked to people in comic shops enough to think that Red Hulk fits this characteristic.

My biggest gripe about Hulk is the sheer number of totally pointless issues in which the characters just fight and "talk trash". (I think that's the phrase I want, anyway.) If Loeb wants to establish the Red Hulk as being a Big Tough Guy, okay, but having Red Hulk fight everyone in the MU, all the way from Galactus to Franklin Richards and H.E.R.B.I.E., just seems like a waste of time. The fact that Red Hulk appears to have no particular motivation whatsoever for doing any of this doesn't help matters.

Venom Melendez! You were supposed to vote for YES! Who do I blame now?!

Good grief. I'll go vote "Yes" if it will make you feel better. I've already admitted I read at least the first nine issues or so.

STAR WARS sells better now than it ever did. But that's because it's riding on the coat tails of 2 awesome hours in the summer of '77.

And of course none of us could actually like any or all of the sequel or prequel movies on their own merits? Or the SW novels? Or the Dark Horse comics? Tsk. :wink: Certainly the original film in 1977 (which I remember seeing in the theaters when it was first released) was a great launch for the franchise, but there have been things to like about the movies and books and whatnot released afterward as well.

 

[Iceshadow]

A.R.M.O.R.? Really? That's the second time A.R.M.O.R. has been linked with a character of interest. I'll have to track down that mini-series when I get a few minutes. Thanks, Iceshadow.

No problem. I figured you'd be interest since you said you're reading Marvel Zombies 4.

As I understand it, "Mary Sue" is a derogatory term for a character that is basically too good to be true, within the previously-established context of the story or universe. It's certainly possible to write a great story that revolves around a character, but that character really shouldn't be super-strong, super-smart, super-gorgeous, unbeatable, always right, and essentially flawless.

In original fiction, it's easier to set up your characters and their universe to allow for super-whatever-ness, but once you've established those rules, you still need to stick to them, or have a believable reason for why this one character can break them. In a universe like Marvel's, a lot of the ground rules have been previously established, and a character that comes out of nowhere and breaks the rules for no reason other than because the author wants it that way really does not work.

One characteristic of a Mary Sue is that only the author really likes him/her. Everyone else just complains that Mary Sue is detracting from the other characters, the ones people really want to read about. (One classic example is the American Exchange Student found in Harry Potter fanfiction.) I've read enough commentary and talked to people in comic shops enough to think that Red Hulk fits this characteristic.

Pretty much. On that note here's a short comic that does a good job of showing how Mary-Sues interact with a story. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20051212

 

[Bass]

I doubt the target audience for Rulk crosses over all that much with people who have nostalgia for the old TV series. You might argue that Hulk has staying power because of the inherent allegory of rage appeals to people on a raw and intuitive level. More likely, Hulk remains popular because people like seeing a big green dude smash **** up.

True. But the comics haven't been delivering that, really. I think the movies have. And the movies enjoy homaging the tv show...

Superboy-Prime is not that terrible. I think he is a pretty good and scary villain.

NO.

Superboy-Prime is emo.

YES.

And of course none of us could actually like any or all of the sequel or prequel movies on their own merits? Or the SW novels? Or the Dark Horse comics? Tsk. :wink: Certainly the original film in 1977 (which I remember seeing in the theaters when it was first released) was a great launch for the franchise, but there have been things to like about the movies and books and whatnot released afterward as well.

My "Star Wars rides on the '77 movie" thing... what I mean is... right, as cool as Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan is, the character in the prequels generates no heat of his own. He is not an interesting, exciting character. His entire appeal stems from 30 minutes of Alec Guinness in a 30 year old movie. Same for Vader. And while the other two movies are indeed cool, Obi-Wan is purely the first movie, and the prequels rest on the Obi-Wan/Vader relationship. Which was a 5-minute scene. Do you see what I mean?

It's not that the prequels/sequels are bad, but with the exception of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, none of them generate their own heat, and rely on the original. In comics, the Ultimate line is a good example of sometimes doing one or the other. THE ULTIMATES vol 1 and 2 generate their own heat. ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR never did, which is why it's always been the retarded member of the line up.

Does that make more sense? :/

 

[E]

As I understand it, "Mary Sue" is a derogatory term for a character that is basically too good to be true, within the previously-established context of the story or universe. It's certainly possible to write a great story that revolves around a character, but that character really shouldn't be super-strong, super-smart, super-gorgeous, unbeatable, always right, and essentially flawless.

Superman?

 

[Random]

Superman?

Well the thing there is that Superman started off like that, his mythology has been made to fit that. It's usually when you add a character whose super awesome "just because", that upset the natural pre-established levels, and feels lame.

 

[Zombipanda]

True. But the comics haven't been delivering that, really. I think the movies have. And the movies enjoy homaging the tv show...

The comics haven't delivered hellacious amounts of smashery?

Sir, I disagree!

 

[Seldes Katne]

My "Star Wars rides on the '77 movie" thing... what I mean is... right, as cool as Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan is, the character in the prequels generates no heat of his own. He is not an interesting, exciting character. His entire appeal stems from 30 minutes of Alec Guinness in a 30 year old movie. Same for Vader. And while the other two movies are indeed cool, Obi-Wan is purely the first movie, and the prequels rest on the Obi-Wan/Vader relationship. Which was a 5-minute scene. Do you see what I mean?

It's not that the prequels/sequels are bad, but with the exception of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, none of them generate their own heat, and rely on the original. In comics, the Ultimate line is a good example of sometimes doing one or the other. THE ULTIMATES vol 1 and 2 generate their own heat. ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR never did, which is why it's always been the retarded member of the line up.

Does that make more sense? :/

I think I understand what you're saying (the Obi-Wan/Vader relationship was the focal point, and the other movies just added to or expanded upon it, or tried to rekindle the emotional impact of it), I just disagree. In the prequels, the Anakin/Padme relationship had some effect on events as well. (Granted, Lucas' love scenes tend to be rather tepid....)

Perhaps I'm the only one who went to see the movies for something other than the Obi-Wan/Vader thing, however. I love the Star Wars aliens and wildlife, and for me, those were big draws, in addition to some of the supporting cast members and the special effects. (*shrugs* I've never claimed to be normal.)

As I understand it, "Mary Sue" is a derogatory term for a character that is basically too good to be true, within the previously-established context of the story or universe. It's certainly possible to write a great story that revolves around a character, but that character really shouldn't be super-strong, super-smart, super-gorgeous, unbeatable, always right, and essentially flawless.

Superman?

Sorry, I'm a little confused. Are you citing Superman as the "story that revolves around a character" example, or as the "too good to be true" character?

 

[E]

Sorry, I'm a little confused. Are you citing Superman as the "story that revolves around a character" example, or as the "too good to be true" character?

The latter. He's too perfect. His supporting cast is 10x more interesting than he is.