Deadly Shooting at Virgina Tech

saintpetesam said:
DISCLAIMER:

Before I address the question, I want to make it clear that neither this argument, nor the original statement that it supports, is or was intended to be a personal attack. Misquotes are one of my pet peeves, especially when the misquote alters the meaning of the original. (Thus I have no real problem with "We don't need no stinking badges" vs. "We don't need no badges" or "Play it again, Sam" vs. "Play it, Sam.") I apologize for the snide tone of the original statement. Furthermore, I'd like to stress that I am not making a judgment regarding the value of guns, gun ownership, or restricting gun ownership.


/DISCLAIMER

Your version of the quotation was, "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." Similar paraphrases are not unusual, but significantly distort the meaning of the original by stripping the objects ("Liberties" and "Safety") of their qualifiers: "essential" and "a little temporary," respectively. (The original quotation again: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.") Without those qualifying words, the implication is that giving up ANY liberty whatsoever regardless of the resulting safety is unconscionable. That is clearly not Franklin's meaning.

To provide a concrete example: you give up your liberty to carry a handgun every time you enter the secured area of an airport. In return, you have a reasonable expectation of not getting shot. An equitable trade-off? If the paraphrase is taken as a maxim, you're a big ol' wuss if you think it is. It is unlikely that Franklin intended to convey the idea that no liberty should ever be given up (not "sacrificed," which carries a boatload of connotative meaning that even further warps the meaning of the original) for any reason.

Is the right to own & carry a firearm an "essential liberty" in the modern milieu? If it is, what kind and quality of safety would justify giving it up? How "temporary" and how "little" must the promised safety be before it becomes a bad trade off? Those are the arguments that the casual paraphrase too easily curtails.
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Ah, very good. You're right on the mark with the airport example. But, technically, that's what I was trying to get across in the first place. My paraphrased quote may not be "correct" in the literal sense, but when I say giving up (In other words, sacrificing) Liberty for Security, I mean it in the grander sense of the phrase.

For example, giving up privacy for safety. Regardless of whether I have anything to hide or not, I do not want my privacy invaded. I have a right to privacy and I value that right far more than my safety.

So, I understand why you corrected it, but I believe we're on the same page. :wink:

Neat. What's your favorite period/region? I was always fond of late Republican Rome (most of my undergrad classes focused on that subject).
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Ooooh, tough question. I've always loved the 100 year period from the Age of Enlightentment to the Victorian Age (Including the Industrial Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars). The Italian Renaissance, the Classical period of Ancient Greece, and the Cold War era are also favorites.

As you can see, I like History. :D
 
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Joe Kalicki said:
I'm not a history major, but last summer I set out to read biographies of the US presidents in order, but I got so fascinated by the Revolutionary era and the building of the nation I haven't left it yet! I just keep reading biographies on other luminaries of the era, such as Hamilton and Franklin, books on the war and war time, and even The Federalist papers.

(though I am making a renewed effort to finish James Monroe and get on with it)

(also: I cheated and read Truman and Eisenhower already)
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Carolyn gave me bios of Washington, Jefferson, Monroe, and Hamilton last year for my birthday. They were brilliant reads. The Federalist Papers are difficult reading, but very well worth it for anyone who hopes to intelligently discuss the U.S. Constitution. Hats off to you for reading them.
 
E said:
And now they have a name for the shooter - turns out he is a resident alien from South Korea.

Which adds some irony to people blaming this on the violence of Americans and their propensity to resort to gun violence.
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I was under the impression he'd been living in the States since 1992.

TheManWithoutFear said:
I don't like the title of this thread.
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We'll get right on with ignoring your objection.
 
Hibiki said:
i imagine your logic is correct. I vote to lock this before it gets out of hand.
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I vote for everyone to get back on topic. There is no reason to lock this; if there is nothing left to post, don't post.
 
Scarecrow said:
You know, every day, there is something that chips away at any hope I have for humanity. I wonder if people ever really pay attention, to, well, anything. If people actually ever try to learn anything from the things going on around them.

For every decent thing that happens? I mean...how many horrible things lead to that, or follow it, or...I don't know.

It seems like humans, in general, are so detached from their world, and the things in that world, that these...attrocities, whatever has ocurred on any given day...are the direct result of the lack of respect for that world...And a general decline in human quality. By quality, I mean any adjective that would accurately describe a good, honest, decent person.

But maybe there never was one in the first place. Maybe this is all there is; continuous strife until one day it happens on a global scale, all due to the failure of human quality.

Chivalry never died; it was murdered.
Sorry. I don't even know what the hell to say, so it's not coming out right. If anyone needs me, I'll will hopefully have transcended to a new level of drunkeness.
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TwilightEL said:
And a couple hundred years ago, people were auctioned off. Thousands of years ago, random hordes of barbarians could make an entire empire fall just by looting, pillaging and raping major areas. Humanity is pulling itself out of the muck by its fingernails.
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Hibiki said:
Mankind is slowly creeping into what is referred to as Droogism. it's a reference from A Clockwork Orange... but I think it pretty much sums up most violence in the world.
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Hibiki said:
Don't mess with him, he's a writer :wink:



Just look around anywhere, read any part of a newspaper and there's always stuff like this going on. Like I said, it's slowly creeping in and we're in the stage of not really caring i.e. ohmeegee, some kids got shot at a college. ten minutes later, you could care less. After that it gets to the point to where we get used to it and it stops bothering us. Do you remember all the televised stuff for columbine or 9/11? That barely happened today and even when those amish kids went on a rampage. There was no 24 hour coverage simply because the media no longer deems it exclusive or what have you. People are just starting not to care. Seriously ask yourself if you give two ****s about it and if you are, are you willing to do something about it?

I guarantee the answer is no. In a month we won't care anymore.
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I'm sick of hearing about how violent the world has gotten.

The world is less violent than it's ever been before.

I read a great article a few weeks ago about this. The fact is that we're less violent, but our sphere of interest is wider. We experience violence through the media and we come to believe that it's everywhere. But violence has been on a serious decline in past centuries.

And it's not like we "don't care". But when all the suffering in the world at any given moment is streaming across CNN's news ticker or is spread across every website, it becomes too overwhelming. The fact is that there's too much sadness in the world for any one person. There's too much suffering for any of us to deal with alone. It becomes crushing if we focus on it and the best thing we can do is appreciate life and love and the good things that we have. We were talking about the John Lennon song "It's So Hard" in my Psych class and it happens to be very relevant:

You got to live,
You got to love,
You got to be somebody,
You got to shove,
But it's hard,
It's really hard,
Some times I feel like going down,
You go to eat,
You got to drink,
You got to feel something,
You got to worry,
It's so hard,
It's really hard,
Some times I feel like going down,
But when it's good,
It's oh so good

What's really going to destroy humanity is the attitude that we're all doomed. We may be less violent, but there's still so much we could do. And you'd be surprised by how much we could do if we'd stop predicting the apocolypse and started looking at things with a little hope.
Joe Kalicki said:
I'm not a history major, but last summer I set out to read biographies of the US presidents in order, but I got so fascinated by the Revolutionary era and the building of the nation I haven't left it yet! I just keep reading biographies on other luminaries of the era, such as Hamilton and Franklin, books on the war and war time, and even The Federalist papers.

(though I am making a renewed effort to finish James Monroe and get on with it)

(also: I cheated and read Truman and Eisenhower already)
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I love FDR. Such an incredible president.
 
moonmaster said:
I'm sick of hearing about how violent the world has gotten.

The world is less violent than it's ever been before.

I read a great article a few weeks ago about this. The fact is that we're less violent, but our sphere of interest is wider. We experience violence through the media and we come to believe that it's everywhere. But violence has been on a serious decline in past centuries.

And it's not like we "don't care". But when all the suffering in the world at any given moment is streaming across CNN's news ticker or is spread across every website, it becomes too overwhelming. The fact is that there's too much sadness in the world for any one person. There's too much suffering for any of us to deal with alone. It becomes crushing if we focus on it and the best thing we can do is appreciate life and love and the good things that we have. We were talking about the John Lennon song "It's So Hard" in my Psych class and it happens to be very relevant:

You got to live,
You got to love,
You got to be somebody,
You got to shove,
But it's hard,
It's really hard,
Some times I feel like going down,
You go to eat,
You got to drink,
You got to feel something,
You got to worry,
It's so hard,
It's really hard,
Some times I feel like going down,
But when it's good,
It's oh so good

What's really going to destroy humanity is the attitude that we're all doomed. We may be less violent, but there's still so much we could do. And you'd be surprised by how much we could do if we'd stop predicting the apocolypse and started looking at things with a little hope.

I love FDR. Such an incredible president.
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Bravo.
 
Oh great Dr phil is blaming this on violent video games. God I hate that guy at times.
 
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