Captain America

i'd hate ult. cap if he was real. but as a comic book character, he rules.
 
Random said:
You can blame a grandfather for his views, but not cap. See the people who lived them witness advances in culture, like the civil right movements and such. Cap didn't back in his day it was okay to treat balck people like ****. Not saying he would be a bad person, thats just how it was. This would be like if someone from the future started lecturing us for being so barbaric or whatever. Ever see Demolition Man? We would look at them like "shut up". If you want to change someone's political views you cant expect it to be over night.

And I don't really see anything that bad about his views (havent read Ultimates 2 vol 2), he doesn't disrespect balck people, He's shown no problems against the gay community. In fact his only gripes I saw was against bad language in movies, wife beaters, and when indivduals kill 800 people for really no good reason.

And on the Pym thing, he only went after him when her heard this has happened many times beofore.

PS He does not have a 50's out look, a 30's/40's outlook

Read Ultimate Nightmare has some good Cap moments. I really liked the speech he gave when they ran into Red Guardian
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First, Don't disrespect Pym or Banner because they are may fave characters in the Ultimates. I hope Pym turns on the Liberators with the ultron robots, which sounds like a genuinely Millar type of thing to do.

Second, back in the day you were not able to pick a fight with someone you didn't agree with, so why do it now.

Third, One thing that really annoyed me was that in ULT War when magneto attacked the Triskelion he turned on the X-men because he didn't know where they were. Sure it got some fight scenes going but i wanted to see a team up. He's rash and isn't smart enough to lead.

I'm reiteriterating but I hope wasp and pym get back together because i like that dynamic. Plus he really didn't do anything wrong yet so turning on them could easily redeem himself. :wink:
 
Prof. Toad said:
First, Don't disrespect Pym or Banner because they are may fave characters in the Ultimates. I hope Pym turns on the Liberators with the ultron robots, which sounds like a genuinely Millar type of thing to do.

Second, back in the day you were not able to pick a fight with someone you didn't agree with, so why do it now.

Third, One thing that really annoyed me was that in ULT War when magneto attacked the Triskelion he turned on the X-men because he didn't know where they were. Sure it got some fight scenes going but i wanted to see a team up. He's rash and isn't smart enough to lead.

I'm reiteriterating but I hope wasp and pym get back together because i like that dynamic. Plus he really didn't do anything wrong yet so turning on them could easily redeem himself. :wink:
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I really find it hard to believe that you're defending Hank Pym over Steve Rodgers. Pym beat his wife several times in college and quite brutally during their marrage. The reason he beat Janet after the Hulk fight was because he was the member of the Ultimates not getting the glory. Captain America didn't knock the **** out of him because he was trigger-happy, but because he and the rest of the team were betrayed by Pym. It doesn't matter what time era you're in, wife beaters are scum bags and Cap just delt with it the way he felt was necessary, an eye for an eye. I also hardly doubt that Hank has done nothing wrong during the Liberators invasion of America. While he didn't kill anyone, he could have prevented this entire operation. He knew the Widow was a traitor and could have told Fury about it. It would have prevented the Liberators from attacking America and Hawkeye's family would still be alive.

Also, Cap's reaction to Banner's transformation wasn't harsh. He turned into the Hulk and slaughtered 800 inocent people. Not only did he lie to the team, but he betrayed their trust in him. Cap could have just as easilly killed him but just knocked him out.

So don't think that out of all of the Ultimates that Cap is the worst of the bunch. All he is is just a victim of circumtance.
 
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Prof. Toad said:
First, Don't disrespect Pym or Banner because they are may fave characters in the Ultimates. I hope Pym turns on the Liberators with the ultron robots, which sounds like a genuinely Millar type of thing to do.
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You know what else seems like a genuinely Millar type of thing to do? Not give Pym a free ride just because he turns back to the side of good. Pym's done some awful, despicable things. He's a character driven by jealousy and cowardice, and betraying the Liberators won't redeem him one iota.

Second, back in the day you were not able to pick a fight with someone you didn't agree with, so why do it now.
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You don't think there's a pretty good chance you'd get your *** kicked for bad-mouthing America back in WWII? Think again. Hell, there's plenty of places you'll get your *** kicked for bad-mouthing Bush these days. Are those people right? No. But they're also not in Cap's situation.

Captain America is a military man, running a military outfit. And both Pym and Banner's actions blatantly endangered his operations in the most vile way. Banner was a national emergency for God's sake!

Not to mention, you're grossly understating the disgusting things Pym did. Cap didn't beat the **** out of Pym because they had an ideological disagreement. Cap beat the **** out of Pym because Pym beat his wife, then sprayed her down with toi chemicals. Afterwards, he ordered bugs to maul her body. He didn't just beat Jan. He tortured her horrifically.

Goddamn. If anything, Cap exhibited a vast amount of restraint. I think the scene was fantastic. It showed how human Cap really is, and how he's not just a military lackey.

Third, One thing that really annoyed me was that in ULT War when magneto attacked the Triskelion he turned on the X-men because he didn't know where they were. Sure it got some fight scenes going but i wanted to see a team up. He's rash and isn't smart enough to lead.
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If the situation in Ultimate War was really indicative of Cap's stupidity and rashness, then it would be the fault of bad writing, not any fault of the character. It's already been established that he's a capable leader.

But I don't think your argument stands. The Ultimates are a super-powered government police force. The X-Men are just some kids who happen to have super powers. If you're leading a group of riot cops controlling a violent riot, and you see a bunch of civilians waving bats and guns, also trying to control the riot, you don't go "Awesome! Allies!" and let them help out. You take down anything that might be a threat.

Also, Fury has made it pretty clear that the government publically disapproves of the X-Men, even if he looks the other way pretty frequently. Teaming up with them is going to run right in the face of this stance.

I'm reiteriterating but I hope wasp and pym get back together because i like that dynamic. Plus he really didn't do anything wrong yet so turning on them could easily redeem himself. :wink:
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What do you mean, "Pym didn't do anything wrong?" He's proven himself again and again to be severely unstable. Not to mention the whole brutalizing a team mate and creating killer death robots thing.



You may not like Cap as a person, but it's hard to not like him as a character. He's an essential dynamic in the story. His philosophy on life resonates a lot with the cowboy tactics of the Bush administration. He's a little coarse, sure, but he represents a part of the American character that you don't see in any of the other Liberators. If we didn't have Cap, the story would just be flat. And Millar makes sure he hits all the notes he needs to.
 
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Zombipanda said:
You know what else seems like a genuinely Millar type of thing to do? Not give Pym a free ride just because he turns back to the side of good. Pym's done some awful, despicable things. He's a character driven by jealousy and cowardice, and betraying the Liberators won't redeem him one iota.
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And that's why I liked this idea:
vintsukka said:
Someone on this board at some point put forth the idea that Pym will try to redeem himself by employing the Ultrons against the Liberators. Then after the fight is over he thinks he's one of the good guys, but Cap disagrees and *****slaps him. This is too much for Pym's fragile psyche and he ends up committing suicide, effectively "setting free" the Ultrons, who disappear and will come back as villains at some later date. I really liked that idea and would love it to happen that way.
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I think it would totally fit Pym's character to turn against the Liberators and then expect being welcomed back with open arms. When this doesn't happen, it would also fit his character to choose the "easy way out" instead of suffering the consequences of his actions.

And it would be a cool way for the Ultrons to go rogue.
 
My one problem with Cap is that if he used to be a sickly kid that used to beat up don't you think he might have turned out different.
 
He was beaten up for no reason back then. Now he has a very good reason. And I wouldn't consider fighting Pym and Banner "beating them up", but averting potentially worse disastors. Hulk killed almost a thousand people. And Pym was growing more and more unstable. It was for the better that Cap did what he did.
 
Prof. Toad said:
Does anyone else hate ultimate Captain America. I can't stand his conservative 50's outlook. All he ever does is beat up people whenever he has a problem with them. I admit Pym was wrong when he beat up wasp but he was whacked out on pills. I'm glad him and wasp are getting back together. And kicking banner in the jaw was uncool.


I'm sorry but I had to get that rant out of my system. He just pisses me off. I hope that Banner and Pym team up and knock him down a level.
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Kicking Banner in the jaw was both cool and appropriate. Picking a fight with the much bigger and stronger Giantman was also appropriate. Ultimate Cap = Badass
 
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Prof. Toad said:
Does anyone else hate ultimate Captain America. I can't stand his conservative 50's outlook. All he ever does is beat up people whenever he has a problem with them. I admit Pym was wrong when he beat up wasp but he was whacked out on pills. I'm glad him and wasp are getting back together. And kicking banner in the jaw was uncool.


I'm sorry but I had to get that rant out of my system. He just pisses me off. I hope that Banner and Pym team up and knock him down a level.
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Cap is my favorite character in the Ultimates. Unlike most of the other characters in the Ultimates he's very genuine and very sensible.

He beat up Banner and Pym because the bastards deserved it. I really like Banner (more than most people, at least), but he deserved to get a good kick in the jaw. He should've been grateful that that's all Cap did. He killed 800 people. And remember, "giving the team someone to fight" was his official explaination but while on the phone with Betty he said that he just wanted to be "big" again. He made a very stupid and selfish decision and Cap was right in punishing him.

As for Hank, the guy beat his wife almost to death. And why? Because she was backtalking to him. He believed he could just go into hiding and avoid the whole situation, but Cap knew that the guy needed to get the crap beaten out of him.

More people should be willing to be like Cap. You kill people, you should get the **** beaten out of you. You beat your wife, you should get the **** beaten out of you. I suppose that's what prison is for.
First, Don't disrespect Pym or Banner because they are may fave characters in the Ultimates.
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That explains it.:wink:
Second, back in the day you were not able to pick a fight with someone you didn't agree with, so why do it now.
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I'm pretty sure you could. At least it was a lot more acceptable.
Third, One thing that really annoyed me was that in ULT War when magneto attacked the Triskelion he turned on the X-men because he didn't know where they were. Sure it got some fight scenes going but i wanted to see a team up. He's rash and isn't smart enough to lead.
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Actually, I think it's the complete opposite. Cap is a master strategist and always thinks out his actions. The Ultimate War example just sounds like bad writing. In the Ultimates, he's always way ahead of the enemy. Remember when they were fighting the Hulk and he said something about having 5 different back-up plans ready to go? If anything, I'd say he over-plans. Look at how quickly he reorganized after the Chitauri invaded. The guy is probably the most well-trained soldier that ever lived. He always seems to know what he's doing.

Unlike most of you, I actually do think Cap would be a cool guy in real life. Listening to some of his war stories would just be awesome.
 
Nope. She got in his face and was pointing/shoving her finger in his face, and he grabbed the radio and smacked her.
 
Prof. Toad said:
I have a question. Didn't Wasp hit Pym first?
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I'm not quite sure.

But I can tell you, I've been slapped by my girlfriend (and lots of exes) before, and I have not once felt the need to beat the living **** out of her, spray her down with toxic chemicals, and unleash an army of insects to tear her to shreds.
 
Prof. Toad, listen to moonmaster. He speaketh the trutheth.

It would also help if you re-read the issues to see that the truteth is real..eth.
 
Ice said:
Prof. Toad, listen to moonmaster. He speaketh the trutheth.

It would also help if you re-read the issues to see that the truteth is real..eth.
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Normally I'd say that nobody should listen to Moony for logic. Listening to Moony for logic is like listening to Jughead's advice on fish sandwiches. You just don't do it.

Normally I'd say that.

But in this instance he's right.
 
Victor Von Doom said:
Normally I'd say that nobody should listen to Moony for logic. Listening to Moony for logic is like listening to Jughead's advice on fish sandwiches. You just don't do it.

Normally I'd say that.

But in this instance he's right.
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I know. It's like enterting the...Twilight Zone...
 
I've always enjoyed Captain America (ult) he is not, like it's been posted before, some kind of titty baby hero wanting to determine why did this villian or banner or pym do this. They were wrong and he's been given authority to fix it. so he did. Millar has always been a little to liberal anyway. So when he writes Cap. I think he must envison Rush on Steroids. Pretty simple really wimpy dude+drugs=10' tall and bullet proof as well as right.
 
Iceshadow said:
No, she was back talking to him and he smacked her.
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Correct-A-Mundo. I remember because that panel of him hitting her just looked so brutal that it kind of made me sick. I suppose the reason why I like Banner and feel bad for him, but have absolutely no sympathy for Hank is because we didn't actually see Banner beat up or kill any innocent civillians.
Victor Von Doom said:
Normally I'd say that nobody should listen to Moony for logic. Listening to Moony for logic is like listening to Jughead's advice on fish sandwiches. You just don't do it.

Normally I'd say that.

But in this instance he's right.
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My logic is so unbelievably logical that it is only at rare moments that your logic and my logic coexist and you are able to understand my logic.
 
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