Batman - The Dark Knight Universe (Earth-31, Frank Miller's TDK)

[ProjectX2]

I think it's both, actually.

 

[Ninja4peace]

Really? I remember Year One as focusing more on Gordon's perspective.

Maybe, I haven't read it for while, I just remember my favourite part is when he hasn't quite worked out he needs to be batman, and he's just being an average joe vigilante with a fake scar across his face as disguise.

 

[DIrishB]

I don't think frank miller had any input to those titles. He wrote an issue of spawn though, prior to writing the batman/spawn crossover. So i guess you could count that as canon.

Why would I include a Spawn issue written by Frank Miller if it doesn't feature Batman? Just because Miller wrote it doesn't mean it belongs on the timeline, otherwise Ronin or Sin City would be up there too.

But I'd only count stuff written by Frank Miller - otherwise you'll end up with Loeb's batman/superman and everything else under the sun that has made sly nods to DKR.

I'm not including stuff that incorporate "sly nods" to the stories. I'm incorporating stories that actually feature those specific characters (ie, the Earth-31/DK Universe Batman, Superman, etc). The Countdown - Arena series actually feaures the Superman from TDK stories in it, hence its inclusion. Same with the Spawn/Batman and Planetary/Batman inclusions.

See, I don't. Think of it as just a phase in his career. I think of it like this. When he starts out in the game, he's still not the nicest of guys. He's willing to endanger lives. He's on a revenge bent. But it quickly becomes aware this is going to be a huge undertaking. Luckily he gets Gordon and Dent onboard, and it looks like they might be able to lock the situation down. There's still faith that he might be able to hang up the bat years after only doing it for a few years.

Then these lunatics start filling in the vacuum. Casual murderers and obsessive neurotics. Dent becomes Two-Face and suddenly that triumvirate that managed to really allow for progress is gone. So here Batman is, a few years into his career and Wayne's basically become consumed by him. All that's left is Batman, now set on this long march mentality. He's at least nominally responsible for this new breed of criminals, and to stop them, he's been forced to become a total prick. With no leisure time, he needs to find his pleasure in his job. So he works out and follows leads and beats the **** out of criminals and that's all he can afford to. Because he keeps telling himself that this job is the most important thing in the world. And with his mind wrapped only in this mission, all his brainpower is devoted to the mission. He's even mapping legacies. He's dangerously obsessed, but that's what he's been driven to.

Then he sees this kid. When he was just a face in a photograph, it was easy to look at the kid and plan out his future for him. But when he's in person, he's weak and scared and a child. Not only is it so contrary to the life that Batman's been exclusively living all these years, it reminds him of himself, the weak boy who couldn't prevent his parents' murder, his weak father.

Frankly, I think it makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of the time we glorify the character of Batman so much that we forget what he is He's a dangerous, privileged socialite who runs around and beats the living **** out of people. He's spending the defense budget of a smaller nation on his own personal armory, waging an urban war. It's easy for us to call him a hero looking from the outside of the comic book. But let's be honest, if that kind of guy showed up in your town, how ****ing terrified would you be? He's dangerous and obsessed and just filled with psychological uncertainties, and it makes perfect sense that a man like that would snap. Hell, anyone would snap when they're forced into a siege mentality 24/7. It honestly seems like a pretty natural place for this guy early in his career. And presumably this Robin story is going to soften, become a more balanced guy, until the events of TDK.

Well said, Zombi.

I don't think Miller's got it all planned out. But he's got the beginning and the end and this is just spanning the difference.

I think it makes more sense when you read DKR, the other heroes all hated him and practically threw a party when he retired. Now this is just showing how batman pissed all the heroes off. It fits, it may not be the same mood and may not be of the same quality as the other stories but it's still Frank Miller's ******* batman.

Completely agree with you there.

 

[DIrishB]

Most people probably already know about it, but since I only recently learned the news I figured I'd post it for any other late-comers:

All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder will continue as "Dark Knight: Boy Wonder"


Thats good news to me. I enjoyed ASB&R, and wanted to see how Miller and Lee would end it. Plus, I can't get enough of Jim Lee's artwork in the title. Everything looks so good.

And almost as good, apparently they gave themself plenty of lead time so Lee would be good and done before releasing the issues, avoiding ridiculous delays like ASB&R suffered from. Comes out in February, 2011, and hopefully runs for six months/issues.

 

[Zombipanda]

Most people probably already know about it, but since I only recently learned the news I figured I'd post it for any other late-comers:

All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder will continue as "Dark Knight: Boy Wonder"


Thats good news to me. I enjoyed ASB&R, and wanted to see how Miller and Lee would end it. Plus, I can't get enough of Jim Lee's artwork in the title. Everything looks so good.

And almost as good, apparently they gave themself plenty of lead time so Lee would be good and done before releasing the issues, avoiding ridiculous delays like ASB&R suffered from. Comes out in February, 2011, and hopefully runs for six months/issues.

I enjoy it as a personal window into Frank Miller's rapid descent into madness.

I just wish Miller were as clever as I am.

 

[Langsta]

Would you guys consider to Year One to be canon in more than one universe? Like, I always saw it as the starting point that could branch off into ASBAR/TDKR as well as the mainstream DCU. Like Year One is an origin story for Miller's psychotic Batman AND mainstream Batman.

 

[ProjectX2]

Would you guys consider to Year One to be canon in more than one universe? Like, I always saw it as the starting point that could branch off into ASBAR/TDKR as well as the mainstream DCU. Like Year One is an origin story for Miller's psychotic Batman AND mainstream Batman.

Correct.

The now Batman-less Holy Terror! comes out soon.

 

[Langsta]

The now Batman-less Holy Terror! comes out soon.

Man, part of me always wanted to see Batman punch Al Qaeda in the face....;-)

 

[E]

I'm reading all of these right now, but out of order. I just read Year One for the first time and enjoyed it - now it's on to Dark Knight Returns, then Dark Knight Strikes Again (which I've never read), then I'll go back and re-read All-Star Batman (which I liked a lot even though it gets a lot of crap).

Really? I remember Year One as focusing more on Gordon's perspective.

That's how I read it.

All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder will continue as "Dark Knight: Boy Wonder"

Whatever happened with this?

 

[Captain Canuck]

Really? I remember Year One as focusing more on Gordon's perspective.

I think it's both, actually.

it has parts that are from Bruce's point of view (when the bat flies in the window, the parts where he's fighting crime, etc) but the book is definitely heavy on Gordon's perspective. I remember reading it and thinking, "Well that was good, but I thought I was going to read Batman: Year One, not Gordon: Year One"

 

[DIrishB]

I'm reading all of these right now, but out of order. I just read Year One for the first time and enjoyed it - now it's on to Dark Knight Returns, then Dark Knight Strikes Again (which I've never read), then I'll go back and re-read All-Star Batman (which I liked a lot even though it gets a lot of crap).

You just melted my brain.

Whatever happened with this?

Ha!!

I'm sure its still in the works, I think they just didn't give enough lead time to realistically get the book done before the Feb/March 2011 planned release (they announced it last April).

Which probably has something to do with Lee working on and promoting the DC Universe online game (which just came out last month) and his new responsibilites as co-publisher at DC.

One thing about Jim Lee is he never seems to recognize when he has too much on his plate.

it has parts that are from Bruce's point of view (when the bat flies in the window, the parts where he's fighting crime, etc) but the book is definitely heavy on Gordon's perspective. I remember reading it and thinking, "Well that was good, but I thought I was going to read Batman: Year One, not Gordon: Year One"

I think the was to show how important a figure Gordon was in helping Batman establish himself in Gotham. Sort of a way of offering a comparison of their vastly different lives while keeping in mind their like-minded goal.

Plus Gordon kicking Det. Flass' ass was probably the most interesting fight in the book.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I think the was to show how important a figure Gordon was in helping Batman establish himself in Gotham. Sort of a way of offering a comparison of their vastly different lives while keeping in mind their like-minded goal.

Plus Gordon kicking Det. Flass' ass was probably the most interesting fight in the book.

yeah, i didn't mind it. But I do want to read a miniseries or watch a tv show or something that shows Batman training and preparing to fight crime. I still cant' figure out why they haven't made a Smallville type show about this.

 

[DIrishB]

yeah, i didn't mind it. But I do want to read a miniseries or watch a tv show or something that shows Batman training and preparing to fight crime. I still cant' figure out why they haven't made a Smallville type show about this.

Could that work, though? What I mean is, Smallville is able to balance the super-heroics with teen angst, coming of age, growing up, etc.

I'm not sure a Batman show could incorporate anything even similar to those and still be considered Batman (given the darker tone and nature of the character himself compared to Supes).

Granted, a show like this could be done, and done very well. I just wonder what approach it should take: something more akin to the Nolan movies (realistic approach) or something a bit less serious.

A series that showcases Bruce's quest to become Batman would be pretty cool, though.

 

[Captain Canuck]

A series that showcases Bruce's quest to become Batman would be pretty cool, though.

yeah, that's all i meant. I don't want it to be a teen drama like Smallville is, just similar in the sense that they would both explore their journey to becoming the hero we know.

That was what I was expecting going into reading Year One, and I still want to see something along those lines.

I know there are a few stories out there, but I want an definitive "origin" series.

 

[Random]

I have a great idea for a Batman show, the first season most episodes would open with a flash back to his training, something different every time and that relates to the episode. I think have a show based solely on his training is lame for a bunch of reasons. I wouldn't mind a comic series.

 

[Gothamite]

yeah, i didn't mind it. But I do want to read a miniseries or watch a tv show or something that shows Batman training and preparing to fight crime. I still cant' figure out why they haven't made a Smallville type show about this.

Because they were actually going to and then didn't/weren't allowed because WB were already making a movie about that.

For me, Batman Begins and its accompanying novelisation are the most definitive Batman origin I'll ever need. Failing that, Denny O'Neils' one-issue story "The Man who Falls" is pretty terrific in that regard as well.

EDIT: I really don't see how you could make a convincing, ongoing drama series with pre-Batman Bruce as the main character, though. When you get right down to it, Bruce Wayne in the early stages of his life post-parental-murder-but-before-Batman is either a reckless, gung-ho, playboy ******* (Batman Begins) or a a creepy, wholly unrelatable character (mainstream comics). Whether you agree or not on the effectiveness of Smallville as a whole, the fact is that Bruce Wayne as a teenager is about the furthest you could possibly get from an 'everyman' and Clark Kent just works better for that kind of story. I just can't really understand why he'd have any friends. An ongoing 22-episode show about Batman's origin would just be miserable, unless they deviated heavily. Even if they gave him a love-interest like Andrea Beaumont in Mask of the Phantasm, it would still be painful to watch because you'd know that it would all end in tears.

As for a "prime" Batman show, for budget reasons, you can't have him in the batsuit for the whole episode (this isn't 1966), so he's going to be Bruce Wayne for 70% of it. How do you make that interesting? Bruce Wayne doesn't have this extensive catalogue of supporting characters like Clark Kent has. His civilian life is even described as being intensely boring. With Superman, you can make it a show about journalism (like Lois & Clark and the original George Reeves show did) and it can be fun and interesting even though Superman can only show up three or four times max, per episode. With Batman, it's either going to be Bruce hanging out in the Batcave all day, or a show about a playboy going to meetings about shareholding or going to charity fundraisers.

My idea for a Batman show sees Batman as only a periphery character. The show centers around an honest cop (who would basically be a grounded, human, powerless version of Clark Kent) in the GCPD who forms a partnership with Batman. The show doesn't even let the viewers know that Batman is Bruce Wayne. We never see the batcave, etc. Batman would gradually become a bigger character with more appearances, until finally later on in the series we are let in on the secret identity and shown the various staples of the character, with flashbacks to the origin, etc. I think this could be the coolest thing ever. Like Gotham Central meets Miami Vice meets World's Finest.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Because they were actually going to and then didn't/weren't allowed because WB were already making a movie about that.

yeah, i knew that, but i still don't see how that stops them from doing the show now.

For me, Batman Begins and its accompanying novelisation are the most definitive Batman origin I'll ever need. Failing that, Denny O'Neils' one-issue story "The Man who Falls" is pretty terrific in that regard as well.

I agree.

EDIT: I really don't see how you could make a convincing, ongoing drama series with pre-Batman Bruce as the main character, though. When you get right down to it, Bruce Wayne in the early stages of his life post-parental-murder-but-before-Batman is either a reckless, gung-ho, playboy ******* (Batman Begins) or a a creepy, wholly unrelatable character (mainstream comics). Whether you agree or not on the effectiveness of Smallville as a whole, the fact is that Bruce Wayne as a teenager is about the furthest you could possibly get from an 'everyman' and Clark Kent just works better for that kind of story. I just can't really understand why he'd have any friends. An ongoing 22-episode show about Batman's origin would just be miserable, unless they deviated heavily. Even if they gave him a love-interest like Andrea Beaumont in Mask of the Phantasm, it would still be painful to watch because you'd know that it would all end in tears.

The show would be about Batman traveling the world and training and learning. It would be cool because each season could be completely different. One season could be a detective crime show, the next could be a martial arts action/adventure, etc. Each season would have it's own story arc but also build on the previous season. I think that could be very compelling.

My idea for a Batman show sees Batman as only a periphery character. The show centers around an honest cop (who would basically be a grounded, human, powerless version of Clark Kent) in the GCPD who forms a partnership with Batman. The show doesn't even let the viewers know that Batman is Bruce Wayne. We never see the batcave, etc. Batman would gradually become a bigger character with more appearances, until finally later on in the series we are let in on the secret identity and shown the various staples of the character, with flashbacks to the origin, etc. I think this could be the coolest thing ever. Like Gotham Central meets Miami Vice meets World's Finest.

That's a great idea! I like that a lot.

 

[Random]

As for a "prime" Batman show, for budget reasons, you can't have him in the batsuit for the whole episode (this isn't 1966), so he's going to be Bruce Wayne for 70% of it.

I don't see why not. It's not that expensive to make a bat suit and with the Dark Knight concept having segmented armor you can make the costume much more breathable.

 

[Gothamite]

The show would be about Batman traveling the world and training and learning. It would be cool because each season could be completely different. One season could be a detective crime show, the next could be a martial arts action/adventure, etc. Each season would have it's own story arc but also build on the previous season. I think that could be very compelling.

The problem with that then is that you don't really have any supporting characters. Alfred, maybe. Who else would be in the show from year to year? What relationships could you develop when the setting of the show changes every year? This comes back to the continuous problem of Batman not really having a supporting cast that he can bounce off.

I just don't think such a lengthy story would work without shoeing in new characters who aren't that interesting.

 

[E]

I just finished reading The Dark Knight Strikes Again for the first time and what the I don't even huh?

It sucked. It should've been titled The Justice League Strikes Again.