Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
It would be funny if she could meet Banner again and then say something like, "You aren't the same man I once loved."
Avengers: Age of Ultron Discussion (Spoilers)
- Thread starter DARKKNIGHT
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It would be funny if she could meet Banner again and then say something like, "You aren't the same man I once loved."
Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
I just read an interview with Whedon done by EW where he said that the Marvel Execs forced him to put the whole cave scene in the movie. Whedon cut it down a lot from what it originally was, but left it in. Have we talked about the fact that they cut out the woman in the cave that we saw in the trailer?
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
It's a little bit more than that. Marvel wanted the cave scene with Thor, Whedon didn't, and said that if he didn't include it, they would take out the farm scene, which Whedon wanted, but Marvel didn't. He described it as having a "gun pointed to the head" situation.
Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
If I had a gun pointed to my head and was told to do something, I would describe that situation as them forcing me to do it.
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
I guess Whedon isn't you and chooses other words to use.If I had a gun pointed to my head and was told to do something, I would describe that situation as them forcing me to do it.
wyokid
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It's an ultimatum. Get rid of the crappy farm scene (I am a very butthurt Clint and Natasha/Bruce and Betty fan and look forward to what will probably Crossbones killing them in Civil War) and bring in more awesome Thor stuff (Norns! WE COULD HAVE HAD NORNS!). Instead Whedon wanted his "boys and girls can just be friends" crap when they could have been having actual stuff happen and have a character arc that's not a retread of a character arc from another movie! This movie could have been twenty times better and my favorite Avengers bad guy wouldn't have turned out the worst bad guy Marvel's done with a better person in charge. Good writers know how to work in the restrictions they're given. That's why Captain America : The Winter Soldier was better than this. I feel bad that the SJWs came after him and he had to lie and say that's not why he quit Twitter for the sake of his carrier, but good riddance. I'm glad he's gone.
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DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
I agree that the farm house scene was weird and really brought the movie to a standstill. In a film where it seems like they had to cut out a ton because of the running time, it should have gone. There's nothing there that's essential to the plot, and the whole thing could have been shifted to a setting that wasn't so jarring. Even though I thought the movie was pretty good, the thing that irritates me about it is that there's a really good movie in there somewhere. I think if they just would have "trimmed the fat" they would have had room for scenes that better explained the plot (like what Thor was up to, the characterizations of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, just better explanations of the whys and hows of the plot). The farmhouse stuff doesn't irritate me as much as the Hulk/Black Widow romance. It just feels unneeded, and kind of boring frankly. IF they were set on doing a Black Widow romantic arch with someone other than Hawkeye, it should have been Cap IMO. They have great chemistry and the contrasts between them could be really interesting. I would prefer that they made a superhero movie without a romantic subplot shoehorned in though. They often feel pointless and tacked on. While I don't dislike Whedon as much as you seem to, I have to admit that his dialogue in this was pretty jarring. That's something I really noticed after a second viewing. There are just a ton of awkward little phrases that no one really says in real life. It comes across as smug and self-indulgent, which is how he seems in a lot of interviews I've seen.
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
Whedon insisted in having it because it served as a beat in the movie, to which I agree with. I liked it and glad it was in it.
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
I agree with Ice.
I also liked the Bruce/Natasha romance idea. It didn't feel shoe-horned in or forced. It seemed pretty natural to me, and made perfect sense for both of their characters (more than any other members of the team, Banner and Romanoff are the biggest outcasts/loners), especially with the dialogue revealing more about Widow's past.
Also, the farmhouse scene shouldn't have been cut. Just as Ice said it was intended as a break in the action, a chance for the team to recuperate, plan, and examine issues amongst the team (like the building animosity between Cap and Stark), and expand on BOTH Hawkeye and Widow's personal lives and pasts (something the other characters got in solo films, but the Avengers films are really the only place for that unless they make a Widow or Hawkeye movie, and I honestly think that's unlikely).
Also, wyo, you keep claiming Whedon is a horrible writer, despite the fact he was the main writer of Toy Story, Serenity, The Cabin in the Woods, Titan AE, etc. All worthwhile and fun films, and Toy Story is brilliant. Also, considering the validity of the rumors that Disney is courting Whedon to replace Trank on the second Star Wars Anthologies film (reportedly the one centered on Boba Fett). I can't wait to see C-3PO make snarky comments about the sad state of feminism in the Imperial Army.
I also liked the Bruce/Natasha romance idea. It didn't feel shoe-horned in or forced. It seemed pretty natural to me, and made perfect sense for both of their characters (more than any other members of the team, Banner and Romanoff are the biggest outcasts/loners), especially with the dialogue revealing more about Widow's past.
Also, the farmhouse scene shouldn't have been cut. Just as Ice said it was intended as a break in the action, a chance for the team to recuperate, plan, and examine issues amongst the team (like the building animosity between Cap and Stark), and expand on BOTH Hawkeye and Widow's personal lives and pasts (something the other characters got in solo films, but the Avengers films are really the only place for that unless they make a Widow or Hawkeye movie, and I honestly think that's unlikely).
Also, wyo, you keep claiming Whedon is a horrible writer, despite the fact he was the main writer of Toy Story, Serenity, The Cabin in the Woods, Titan AE, etc. All worthwhile and fun films, and Toy Story is brilliant. Also, considering the validity of the rumors that Disney is courting Whedon to replace Trank on the second Star Wars Anthologies film (reportedly the one centered on Boba Fett). I can't wait to see C-3PO make snarky comments about the sad state of feminism in the Imperial Army.
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Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
I guess Whedon isn't you and chooses other words to use.
I'm confused what we're arguing about. You're right, you represented what Whedon said more exactly, but I was summarizing.
I want them to just wait until Civil War and have a romance between her and Bucky.
Which little phrases in particular?
Hawkeye had a crush on Black Widow at the beginning of his run in the comics, but they never had a relationship, to my knowledge. I don't know what there is to be upset about there, unless you were just rooting for it to happen in the movies, which I can understand. But to be honest, the farm scene was awesome. I would have gladly cut out some of the action before I cut that part out. The second time I watch the movie, I noticed how strongly there was a theme of the Avengers all feeling like monsters (except for maybe Thor). Hawkeye gets teased the whole way through by the other guys for not having powers and being vulnerable but in the end, he shows himself to be the anchor of the team because he's the most human. He knows who he is and why he's fighting. I thought that was awesome character development for him and also a cool mirror to hold up for the other avengers.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said. The Hulk/Widow thing seemed pointless. The villains were terribly underdeveloped. The Norns would have been cool (but I don't think they would have helped the movie). And yeah, Whedon doesn't seem to be very good at working within his restrictions to make a movie. But I don't know that it's fair to compare this to the Russos and The Winter Soldier because there was no infinity stone plot thread in that movie, it wasn't as big of an ensemble piece, the villains didn't require the same amount of development (except for maybe Pierce) and it was an entirely different kind of movie.
Also, what are the SJWs?
Agreed.
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wyokid
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This. I hate his dialogue for this reason. Everything is smug, dryly delivered, and that's how he likes it. Also nothing is ever his fault. He's blaming Marvel for Age of Ultron, Halle Berry delivered the "toad struck by lightning" line wrong, and Alien Resurrection was the director, cast, and crew's fault, not his terrible script.
Toy Story: doctored the script, was written over several times after.
Serenity: didn't bother because Firefly, like all his other shows, was crap
Cabin in the Woods: co-written by Daredevil's Drew Goddard
Titan AE: never saw
That Star Wars rumor has been going since Disney bought Marvel. Why do you want the guy who films everything like prime time tv show on a Star Wars film?
The only worthwhile thing on the farm was Nick Fury's scene which could have easily happened anywhere else. The wood chopping scene added no additional character conflict, Bruce and Natasha felt incredibly forced in and Clint and Natasha (who have been a couple in the comics) had been setup to be a thing in both The Winter Soldier and The Avengers, Hawkeye's family came out of nowhere and could have been written out entirely with no effect (perfect time to introduce Avengers mansion), and, again, I look forward to them dying.
To quite Patton Oswalt they're basically the Tea Party of the Left. They say they stand for equality, but most of them usually are just femanazis and are after opressing white straight males and are calling it equality. These are the people that blindly treated Trayvon Martin as a saint when he was actually quite clearly a criminal (not saying he deserved to die and Zimmerman is a HUGE piece of ****, but even if he hadn't had ingredients to make drugs on him he was still trespassing), these people who are blocking the people they say they're standing for from going to class, the people who claim rape when guys look at them, etc. All they're doing is causing more social divide by adding MORE focus on race, sexuality, and gender when really none of those things matter at all (especially if you want equality). Whedon says they had nothing to do with him leaving Twitter, but I imagine if I were getting non-stop death threats and people telling me to die I'd quit too.
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
*snip*
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DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
There were a few. The big one that really kind of took me out of the movie is something Stark says while he's talking to Banner about creating Ultron. Banner says something about consulting the rest of the team, and Stark says something along the lines of not wanting to hear their "man shouldn't meddle melody". It was something like that. I'm positive it was "man shouldn't meddle" and then a third "m" word. Even for a witty character like Stark it was just the type of awkward phrase that no one would actually say.
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
"I don't want to hear the 'Man Was Not Meant to Meddle' medley."
Stark called a nine year old kid a "*****" to his face... I don't presume to know what Stark would or wouldn't say.
It's also completely in line with who he is as a character. He's always acted before he should, built things he probably shouldn't have, etc. Stark has always been the type to jump head first and deal with the consequences afterward. That line merely summed that aspect of the character up at a perfect time, given the soon to be creation of an AI bent on human extinction.
DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
The sentiment is totally in line with his character, but I can't see anyone wording a sentence like that in real life. Sure these are comic book movies, and I believe that realism should only be applied to a certain point, but it was a jarring enough phrase to take me out of the movie entirely for a moment or two. I'm all for clever, inventive dialogue, but Whedon putting that in just felt awkward and unnatural. It's more an issue of phrasing than actual content. All this being said, I gave the movie 4 stars out of 5, so by no means did I hate it or even dislike the film as a whole. This is just one little thing that I noticed in this movie but didn't in the first. Maybe it's because Loki had a lot of the best lines in the first movie, and his semi-Shakespearean manner of speaking makes that sort of thing sound natural. It just strikes me that Whedon is celebrated for his dialogue (these little phrases often included), and that line felt like him self-indulging in that reputation a bit too much.
As for Stark calling a kid a "*****", that seems like something he would do, and is worded in a realistic way.
wyokid
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"I disagree, therefore it's hyperbole"
Good defence. I don't even know why I waste my time on this site anymore. All I do is argue and feel miserable when I log in.
Good defence. I don't even know why I waste my time on this site anymore. All I do is argue and feel miserable when I log in.
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
The sentiment is totally in line with his character, but I can't see anyone wording a sentence like that in real life. Sure these are comic book movies, and I believe that realism should only be applied to a certain point, but it was a jarring enough phrase to take me out of the movie entirely for a moment or two. I'm all for clever, inventive dialogue, but Whedon putting that in just felt awkward and unnatural. It's more an issue of phrasing than actual content. All this being said, I gave the movie 4 stars out of 5, so by no means did I hate it or even dislike the film as a whole. This is just one little thing that I noticed in this movie but didn't in the first. Maybe it's because Loki had a lot of the best lines in the first movie, and his semi-Shakespearean manner of speaking makes that sort of thing sound natural. It just strikes me that Whedon is celebrated for his dialogue (these little phrases often included), and that line felt like him self-indulging in that reputation a bit too much.
As for Stark calling a kid a "*****", that seems like something he would do, and is worded in a realistic way.
See, it wasn't jarring to me. Stark seems like the type of person to occasionally use such wordplay. It was no more jarring or out of place than Loki referring to Black Widow as a "mewling quim"... It's arguably less so, in fact.
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End it, now. If you can't say anything nice, keep it to yourself. I'm so sick of dealing with this all the time.
Back on topic.
I saw it this past weekend and loved it. It was a little slow at first and I wasn't sure about it but it picked up and was much better.
I also thought the Widow/Banner romance was shoehorned in and kind of awkward, but it didn't ruin anything for me.
The farm scene - also kind of awkward but I get what it did. Immediately it made me think of Laura's demise in Ultimates 2, though, and I was half expecting something like that.
Loved just about everything about Vision - they did a great job with that.
Spader ended up being a weird choice for Ultron; also kind of awkward. The jokey parts seemed a little inappropriate to the character.
Probably going back next weekend to take my son.
Back on topic.
I saw it this past weekend and loved it. It was a little slow at first and I wasn't sure about it but it picked up and was much better.
I also thought the Widow/Banner romance was shoehorned in and kind of awkward, but it didn't ruin anything for me.
The farm scene - also kind of awkward but I get what it did. Immediately it made me think of Laura's demise in Ultimates 2, though, and I was half expecting something like that.
Loved just about everything about Vision - they did a great job with that.
Spader ended up being a weird choice for Ultron; also kind of awkward. The jokey parts seemed a little inappropriate to the character.
Probably going back next weekend to take my son.
DARKKNIGHT
Well-Known Member
I actually really liked that they made the robot really neurotic. It made him feel different from just another robot intent on destroying humanity. I think they could have made his overall plan a bit clearer throughout. It seemed that he was trying to make humans evolve by creating a new race of mechanical human-robot hybrids (not sure of the correct way to word it), and then destroying humans with the 'Eastern-European city asteroid'. I guess that was the point of the body that they ultimately put the Vision in. Maybe it was clear to everyone from the get go, but I was a little fuzzy on what exactly he was trying to do the first time I saw it.
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
It made sense to me that Ultron was the way he was. He was an evil version of Stark, like how in the comics he was from Pym.
