Avatar: The Last Air Bender (Spoilers!)

There is now to be grand total of twenty-one episodes in the third season. 11 already aired (if you count the leak) and 10 still laying around on a shelf at Nickelodean somewhere.
 
I'm really gonna miss my Avatar fix this week. I thought it was coming on today until I read Grocer Man's post. I checked, and it is true :( And guess what? Instead of Avatar this week, we have four new episodes of Spongebob! Yippee! :roll:
 
Just finished watching the two parter. It was great.

And there's going to be 21 episodes this season? That's weird.
 
So today I was enjoying my favorite hobby of overthinking kid's shows. I've decided that even if the Fire Nation wins, they lose. Even if they kill Aang and crush all organized resistance, they can't take over the world.

Imagine thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of soldiers coming home or trying to settle down in the Earth Kingdom. The only marketable skills they have are sailing around, looking imposing and shooting flames at people. Most aren't even good fighters. All of these men, many broken emotionally and physically, are going to come back home to their hero's welcome, but after it wears off, what's left for them? Slowly dying of blacklung at a ****ty factory job for low pay? Even if they would be satisfied with that, what's left for them to make if there is no war? If they've been fighting for a hundred years, their economy revolves around building ships, catapults and tanks with constant expansion into new territories. The end of the war, with victory or defeat, will leave them with hundreds of factories and thousands of workers with almost nothing to do. They'll be poor and starving for lack of jobs.

If the Fire Nation becomes the Fire World, then the entire Earth Kingdom will have to be brought under control with local government. The Fire Nation is by its very nature extremely centralized, with one ruler who dominates over everyone. They're going to have to change their entire system of government if they want to unify the former Earth Kingdom and not leave it as a bunch of colonies or city-states ruled by squabbling governors and noblemen. They'll also need to change the occupying forces into something resembling peacetime police (I admit, getting the allegiance of the Dai Li is a step in the right direction).

The Fire Nation doesn't have our modern technology, so they'll have to do all this with the speed of communication being the speed of a flying hawk, not to mention the fact that any clever rebels would work on intercepting those messages and spreading false intelligence. Plus, their world isn't fully mapped. Weird little places like the foggy swamp are constantly popping up, many of which have their own native inhabitants with freakish bending powers who won't just roll over for the Fire Nation. Speaking of freakish bending powers, who's to say that Hama is the only one of her kind? Even if they're not bloodbenders specifically, one hidden bender who flips out could do a hell of a lot of damage. There probably will be regular, minor uprisings of earthbenders or terrorists like Jet. Even if they don't revolt outright, there'll be little to no cooperation from the locals.

And then there's the spirits. If they do export their way of life and their factories to the rest of the world, the spirits aren't going to like it. And with the avatar either gone or reborn as a baby, nobody's going to stop them from rampaging to their heart's content.

It's hard to see how the Fire Nation can maintain any kind of control over the Earth Kingdom and/or incorporate it into a Fire Empire without splintering it into little colonies dominated by their noble rulers, especially with the hellish economic backlash the end of the war will leave them with.

Of course, this assumption is made with the caveat "If they[...]crush all organized resistance". Really, it'll probably be more like America and Iraq, where destroying the formal government and army makes it even worse and anarchy takes control over a battlefield née country.
 
TwilightEL said:
So today I was enjoying my favorite hobby of overthinking kid's shows. I've decided that even if the Fire Nation wins, they lose. Even if they kill Aang and crush all organized resistance, they can't take over the world.

Imagine thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of soldiers coming home or trying to settle down in the Earth Kingdom. The only marketable skills they have are sailing around, looking imposing and shooting flames at people. Most aren't even good fighters. All of these men, many broken emotionally and physically, are going to come back home to their hero's welcome, but after it wears off, what's left for them? Slowly dying of blacklung at a ****ty factory job for low pay? Even if they would be satisfied with that, what's left for them to make if there is no war? If they've been fighting for a hundred years, their economy revolves around building ships, catapults and tanks with constant expansion into new territories. The end of the war, with victory or defeat, will leave them with hundreds of factories and thousands of workers with almost nothing to do. They'll be poor and starving for lack of jobs.

If the Fire Nation becomes the Fire World, then the entire Earth Kingdom will have to be brought under control with local government. The Fire Nation is by its very nature extremely centralized, with one ruler who dominates over everyone. They're going to have to change their entire system of government if they want to unify the former Earth Kingdom and not leave it as a bunch of colonies or city-states ruled by squabbling governors and noblemen. They'll also need to change the occupying forces into something resembling peacetime police (I admit, getting the allegiance of the Dai Li is a step in the right direction).

The Fire Nation doesn't have our modern technology, so they'll have to do all this with the speed of communication being the speed of a flying hawk, not to mention the fact that any clever rebels would work on intercepting those messages and spreading false intelligence. Plus, their world isn't fully mapped. Weird little places like the foggy swamp are constantly popping up, many of which have their own native inhabitants with freakish bending powers who won't just roll over for the Fire Nation. Speaking of freakish bending powers, who's to say that Hama is the only one of her kind? Even if they're not bloodbenders specifically, one hidden bender who flips out could do a hell of a lot of damage. There probably will be regular, minor uprisings of earthbenders or terrorists like Jet. Even if they don't revolt outright, there'll be little to no cooperation from the locals.

And then there's the spirits. If they do export their way of life and their factories to the rest of the world, the spirits aren't going to like it. And with the avatar either gone or reborn as a baby, nobody's going to stop them from rampaging to their heart's content.

It's hard to see how the Fire Nation can maintain any kind of control over the Earth Kingdom and/or incorporate it into a Fire Empire without splintering it into little colonies dominated by their noble rulers, especially with the hellish economic backlash the end of the war will leave them with.

Of course, this assumption is made with the caveat "If they[...]crush all organized resistance". Really, it'll probably be more like America and Iraq, where destroying the formal government and army makes it even worse and anarchy takes control over a battlefield née country.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think that even if they did win, Ozai loses control of his comet-born powers and just sets everyone on fire.

Or the comet just crashes into the planet and blows everything up. And it's somehow Ozai's fault.

Either way, yeah, they're boned.
 
Goddammit Twilight. You and your thinking.

TwilightEL said:
So today I was enjoying my favorite hobby of overthinking kid's shows. I've decided that even if the Fire Nation wins, they lose. Even if they kill Aang and crush all organized resistance, they can't take over the world.

Imagine thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of soldiers coming home or trying to settle down in the Earth Kingdom. The only marketable skills they have are sailing around, looking imposing and shooting flames at people. Most aren't even good fighters. All of these men, many broken emotionally and physically, are going to come back home to their hero's welcome, but after it wears off, what's left for them? Slowly dying of blacklung at a ****ty factory job for low pay? Even if they would be satisfied with that, what's left for them to make if there is no war? If they've been fighting for a hundred years, their economy revolves around building ships, catapults and tanks with constant expansion into new territories. The end of the war, with victory or defeat, will leave them with hundreds of factories and thousands of workers with almost nothing to do. They'll be poor and starving for lack of jobs.
Click to expand...

Just because they have no more need for tanks doesn't mean that the factories will go out of business. Automobile production seems to be the next logical step. Also, they have learn how to air travel, cargo and passenger zeps are going to be needed to transfer troops and supplies to occupied countries.

If the Fire Nation becomes the Fire World, then the entire Earth Kingdom will have to be brought under control with local government. The Fire Nation is by its very nature extremely centralized, with one ruler who dominates over everyone. They're going to have to change their entire system of government if they want to unify the former Earth Kingdom and not leave it as a bunch of colonies or city-states ruled by squabbling governors and noblemen. They'll also need to change the occupying forces into something resembling peacetime police (I admit, getting the allegiance of the Dai Li is a step in the right direction).
Click to expand...

There would have to be regional lords, that are willing to rebuild the conquered lands, but at the same time enact a new Fire World education system so they can control the next generation.

The Fire Nation doesn't have our modern technology, so they'll have to do all this with the speed of communication being the speed of a flying hawk, not to mention the fact that any clever rebels would work on intercepting those messages and spreading false intelligence. Plus, their world isn't fully mapped. Weird little places like the foggy swamp are constantly popping up, many of which have their own native inhabitants with freakish bending powers who won't just roll over for the Fire Nation. Speaking of freakish bending powers, who's to say that Hama is the only one of her kind? Even if they're not bloodbenders specifically, one hidden bender who flips out could do a hell of a lot of damage. There probably will be regular, minor uprisings of earthbenders or terrorists like Jet. Even if they don't revolt outright, there'll be little to no cooperation from the locals.
Click to expand...

Not much can be done about communication except to develop a special code to protect the integrity of messages. Pockets of resistance (bloodbenders, swampbenders, etc.) aren't a huge problem and can be met with overwhelming force. What good is blood bending if you can't dodge a bomb?

And then there's the spirits. If they do export their way of life and their factories to the rest of the world, the spirits aren't going to like it. And with the avatar either gone or reborn as a baby, nobody's going to stop them from rampaging to their heart's content.
Click to expand...

I don't know...exorcists? How did they get rid of the spirits in their own country?

It's hard to see how the Fire Nation can maintain any kind of control over the Earth Kingdom and/or incorporate it into a Fire Empire without splintering it into little colonies dominated by their noble rulers, especially with the hellish economic backlash the end of the war will leave them with.

Of course, this assumption is made with the caveat "If they[...]crush all organized resistance". Really, it'll probably be more like America and Iraq, where destroying the formal government and army makes it even worse and anarchy takes control over a battlefield née country.
Click to expand...

Thing is, the Earth Kingdom was really just a loose confederation of city states "controlled" by a puppet king who didn't even know there was a war going on. After you crush the local government, you start to help the people give them things so that they become dependent on you. This can be done with education, free food, jobs, whatever as long as the conquered see you as beneficial. Slowly brainwash- I mean educate the children to your world views, and most problems will disappear within a generation.
 
Iceshadow said:
Just because they have no more need for tanks doesn't mean that the factories will go out of business. Automobile production seems to be the next logical step. Also, they have learn how to air travel, cargo and passenger zeps are going to be needed to transfer troops and supplies to occupied countries.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think you're describing something like post-WW2 America, where the boom in industry continued in a time of prosperity and baby-making. Unless you were a minority, in which case you were getting firehosed. But I digress. The Fire Nation just doesn't have a capitalist society. They have some kind of nobility/caste system and the idea of factory-producing private cars or toys doesn't make sense for them. Even if it does, it goes back to what was the original (not very well stated) point of my first post: The Fire Nation cannot survive as the grand, unified, static empire that the Fire Lord seems to want it to be.

Iceshadow said:
There would have to be regional lords, that are willing to rebuild the conquered lands, but at the same time enact a new Fire World education system so they can control the next generation.
Click to expand...

Again, I don't think I explained my original point very well. I think there would be regional lords, but what motivation do the regional lords have to be loyal to the Fire Lord? The only high-ranked members of the Fire Nation military/government we've seen who aren't a vicious, greedy, ambitious bastard are Mai's dad, Iroh, and Ursa (Zuko's mom). Iroh was still very clever and didn't seem to be buying the "Fire World spread-our-way-of-life" hype. Zuko only receives respect and honor by killing a twelve year old. I don't even know if Ursa counts, since she got married. Mai's dad... I'll give you that one, plus he had control of the most prominent colony in the Earth Kingdom. Maybe he'd be meaner if he weren't worried about his infant son.

My point is, there seems to be evidence that the colonies would be ruled by manipulative, power-hungry nobles who would want to turn their colonies into their own little kingdoms. Remember in that episode where Aang went to the Fire Nation school, everyone accepted every weird thing he did because he said he was from the colonies (pretty significant, even accounting for the "city folk"'s prejudice)? Along with the general jack-assery displayed by Fire Nation soldiers abroad, I think this indicates that the Fire Nation is occupying their colonies, not treating them like part of their nation, and these little kings are going to think of their territory as the spoils of war, not a parcel of land they're being allowed to run for the Fire Lord.

Iceshadow said:
Not much can be done about communication except to develop a special code to protect the integrity of messages. Pockets of resistance (bloodbenders, swampbenders, etc.) aren't a huge problem and can be met with overwhelming force. What good is blood bending if you can't dodge a bomb?
Click to expand...

I think that after all-out assaults are seen to be failures, they'll start to adapt. Even accounting for avatar=trouble magnet, it's implausible that the main characters are the only ones who've run into the ticking time bombs of people like Haru, Jet, the swampbenders and Hama. There are more of them out there, and eventually they're going to fight smarter, enlist spies, attack hawks or use other tactics (including outright terrorism, if they're desperate enough).

Codes can be broken and it'll be hard to standardize them for an entire world. If they can break a code, it'll take a long time before everyone catches on and decides on a new code.

Iceshadow said:
I don't know...exorcists? How did they get rid of the spirits in their own country?
Click to expand...

I don't know either. Let's just skip this point.

Iceshadow said:
Thing is, the Earth Kingdom was really just a loose confederation of city states "controlled" by a puppet king who didn't even know there was a war going on. After you crush the local government, you start to help the people give them things so that they become dependent on you. This can be done with education, free food, jobs, whatever as long as the conquered see you as beneficial. Slowly brainwash- I mean educate the children to your world views, and most problems will disappear within a generation.
Click to expand...

I just don't see this happening. Almost every Fire Nation official we've seen ruling over the colonies (again, discounting Mai's ***** dad) has ruthlessly exploited and abused the populace. Their campaign against the earthbenders borders on fictional genocide* (as opposed to the war on the airbenders and Southern Tribe waterbenders, which was fictional genocide--and pretty damn successful, too). Plus, probably only the richest kids go to school. Most will be educated by experience and oral tradition, spending most of their time trying to feed their families or working on an apprenticeship. I think that'll make them easier to brainwash in some ways and harder in others.

In summary, what I'm saying is that the centralized government of the Fire Nation will be weakened greatly. It'll be harder for them to communicate with the other colonies and there'll be a huge economic crisis as the workforce swells while the demand for new products drops enormously. The conquered Earth Kingdom will be carved up into mini-kingdoms with a blend of Fire Nation culture and Earth culture. The resistance will never entirely stop, even if the majority turns against it, and cutting the lines of communication will be their greatest priority. Slowly, the Fire World will turn into a bunch of little states developing their own governments, cultures and religions based on a combination of Fire and Earth styles. I'm not sure what'll happen to the tribes at the poles.

By the way, I had another thought. Azula is totally Katara's evil opposite. Same age, same gender, opposite nations, opposite elemental and moral alignments, both powerful benders who mastered an extremely rare and nasty aspect of their element, and both experience mood swings because they overreact to things. Azula loves to manipulate and play with people while Katara can make people her literal puppets but chooses not to. Azula killed Aang and Katara resuscitated him. Azula:Katara::Mirror Universe:Regular universe. Totally.

*Sorry, I just don't feel right using the word genocide in a conversation about a kid's show and felt the need to justify it by prefacing it with fictional.
 
TwilightEL said:
I disagree. I think you're describing something like post-WW2 America, where the boom in industry continued in a time of prosperity and baby-making. Unless you were a minority, in which case you were getting firehosed. But I digress. The Fire Nation just doesn't have a capitalist society. They have some kind of nobility/caste system and the idea of factory-producing private cars or toys doesn't make sense for them. Even if it does, it goes back to what was the original (not very well stated) point of my first post: The Fire Nation cannot survive as the grand, unified, static empire that the Fire Lord seems to want it to be.
Click to expand...

****. I wasn't thinking of the caste system that probably wouldn't allow lower classes to have anything good.



Again, I don't think I explained my original point very well. I think there would be regional lords, but what motivation do the regional lords have to be loyal to the Fire Lord? The only high-ranked members of the Fire Nation military/government we've seen who aren't a vicious, greedy, ambitious bastard are Mai's dad, Iroh, and Ursa (Zuko's mom). Iroh was still very clever and didn't seem to be buying the "Fire World spread-our-way-of-life" hype. Zuko only receives respect and honor by killing a twelve year old. I don't even know if Ursa counts, since she got married. Mai's dad... I'll give you that one, plus he had control of the most prominent colony in the Earth Kingdom. Maybe he'd be meaner if he weren't worried about his infant son.

My point is, there seems to be evidence that the colonies would be ruled by manipulative, power-hungry nobles who would want to turn their colonies into their own little kingdoms. Remember in that episode where Aang went to the Fire Nation school, everyone accepted every weird thing he did because he said he was from the colonies (pretty significant, even accounting for the "city folk"'s prejudice)? Along with the general jack-assery displayed by Fire Nation soldiers abroad, I think this indicates that the Fire Nation is occupying their colonies, not treating them like part of their nation, and these little kings are going to think of their territory as the spoils of war, not a parcel of land they're being allowed to run for the Fire Lord.
Click to expand...

Your right, I was just speaking from an idealistic perspective. Like if had any say in the way things were run.



I think that after all-out assaults are seen to be failures, they'll start to adapt. Even accounting for avatar=trouble magnet, it's implausible that the main characters are the only ones who've run into the ticking time bombs of people like Haru, Jet, the swampbenders and Hama. There are more of them out there, and eventually they're going to fight smarter, enlist spies, attack hawks or use other tactics (including outright terrorism, if they're desperate enough).

Codes can be broken and it'll be hard to standardize them for an entire world. If they can break a code, it'll take a long time before everyone catches on and decides on a new code.
Click to expand...

Personally, I believe (assuming that the Avatar is dead) that most resistance will be beaten pretty quickly. I could see swamp benders holding out for a while though (is it weird that we haven't seen any female ones?).


I just don't see this happening. Almost every Fire Nation official we've seen ruling over the colonies (again, discounting Mai's ***** dad) has ruthlessly exploited and abused the populace. Their campaign against the earthbenders borders on fictional genocide* (as opposed to the war on the airbenders and Southern Tribe waterbenders, which was fictional genocide--and pretty damn successful, too). Plus, probably only the richest kids go to school. Most will be educated by experience and oral tradition, spending most of their time trying to feed their families or working on an apprenticeship. I think that'll make them easier to brainwash in some ways and harder in others.
Click to expand...

You're right, I was just using a perfect scenario.

I'm not sure what'll happen to the tribes at the poles.
Click to expand...

I'd imagine that they would try to wipe them out like the air nomads.

By the way, I had another thought. Azula is totally Katara's evil opposite. Same age, same gender, opposite nations, opposite elemental and moral alignments, both powerful benders who mastered an extremely rare and nasty aspect of their element, and both experience mood swings because they overreact to things. Azula loves to manipulate and play with people while Katara can make people her literal puppets but chooses not to. Azula killed Aang and Katara resuscitated him. Azula:Katara::Mirror Universe:Regular universe. Totally.
Click to expand...

:D I know! I hope they have a final battle.
 
TwilightEL said:
I don't know either. Let's just skip this point.
Click to expand...
I think the spirits only attack individual areas and would imagine at some point it will become a huge problem for the fire nation
Azula is totally Katara's evil opposite. Same age, same gender, opposite nations, opposite elemental and moral alignments, both powerful benders who mastered an extremely rare and nasty aspect of their element, and both experience mood swings because they overreact to things. Azula loves to manipulate and play with people while Katara can make people her literal puppets but chooses not to. Azula killed Aang and Katara resuscitated him. Azula:Katara::Mirror Universe:Regular universe. Totally.

*Sorry, I just don't feel right using the word genocide in a conversation about a kid's show and felt the need to justify it by prefacing it with fictional.
Click to expand...

Iceshadow said:
:D I know! I hope they have a final battle.
Click to expand...
I personally think its gonna be Zuko vs Azula in the end, because they are much more opposites and Zuko will need to take her out to become a good fire lord, I can picture this battle really demostrating Zuko's personal growth and show how he has developed throughout the series
 
So, yeah, Day of Black Sun.

Greatest episode of Avatar? Possibly. One of the most epic, satisfying episodes of any cartoon, ever? That might be stretching it, but still, a fantastic episode all around. I'm glad I waited until Friday to watch this instead of giving in and watching a crappy quality version on youtube.

Azula is insane. Even without her powers, she's a formidable adversary, not just of the body, but also of the mind. Done right, her downfall and defeat is going to be ridiculously satisfying.

Also, I like how the Fire Lord isn't like some main villains who are all bark and no bite. That lightning bending he did easily matched anything I've seen Azula or Iroh do, and it will be interesting to see him unleash the full brunt of his powers.

On that note, Zuko is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters. It took a long time, but he finally stood up to his father. And the notion that his mother might still be alive is a fascinating one, and will I'm sure provide some great drama down the road (especially considering what she may or may not have done to get Ozai on the throne and protect Zuko).

Everyone shined in this episode. We got more depth from Sokka, which was really nice. Katara and Aang finally kissed, although where that might lead we don't yet know. And Aang has once again failed, and I'm sure it will weigh heavy on him.

All in all, a fantastic episode. Lots of developments, but lots of setting up for future events (probably more setting up, but since we still have half a season left, that's okay). Oh, and one more thing . . . .

Iroh. Is. Da. Bomb. In fact, he is so da bomb that he can take an old, corny phrase and actually make it work. Seriously - he's a one man army. I think Zuko will eventually be the one to take down Azula, but I'll be damned if I don't want to see Iroh wipe the floor with her. Because you all know he could.

So, yeah, great episode. I'm eagerly anticipating the next installments in the series, but I can't say it's going to be an easy eager anticipation (and I thought waiting one week was bad . . . .)
 
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Volunteer Fire Detective said:
So, yeah, Day of Black Sun.

Greatest episode of Avatar? Possibly. One of the most epic, satisfying episodes of any cartoon, ever? That might be stretching it, but still, a fantastic episode all around. I'm glad I waited until Friday to watch this instead of giving in and watching a crappy quality version on youtube.

Azula is insane. Even without her powers, she's a formidable adversary, not just of the body, but also of the mind. Done right, her downfall and defeat is going to be ridiculously satisfying.

Also, I like how the Fire Lord isn't like some main villains who are all bark and no bite. That lightning bending he did easily matched anything I've seen Azula or Iroh do, and it will be interesting to see him unleash the full brunt of his powers.

On that note, Zuko is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters. It took a long time, but he finally stood up to his father. And the notion that his mother might still be alive is a fascinating one, and will I'm sure provide some great drama down the road (especially considering what she may or may not have done to get Ozai on the throne and protect Zuko).

Everyone shined in this episode. We got more depth from Sokka, which was really nice. Katara and Aang finally kissed, although where that might lead we don't yet know. And Aang has once again failed, and I'm sure it will weigh heavy on him.

All in all, a fantastic episode. Lots of developments, but lots of setting up for future events (probably more setting up, but since we still have half a season left, that's okay). Oh, and one more thing . . . .

Iroh. Is. Da. Bomb. In fact, he is so da bomb that he can take an old, corny phrase and actually make it work. Seriously - he's a one man army. I think Zuko will eventually be the one to take down Azula, but I'll be damned if I don't want to see Iroh wipe the floor with her. Because you all know he could.

So, yeah, great episode. I'm eagerly anticipating the next installments in the series, but I can't say it's going to be an easy eager anticipation (and I thought waiting one week was bad . . . .)
Click to expand...

When the **** did all of this happen!?
 
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