Astonishing X-Men discussion (spoilers)

[Synch]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

i know. he's fought shaw like 700x's. must be a slow learning curve. why not just drag him to the toilet and drown em'?

Exactly, him and Logan are begging for it at this point, but still no one can figure out how to kill them. Didn't Madelyne Pryor die in X-MAN?

 

[Dr.Strangefate]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

It annoys me that it's so blatant. Yes, she's a ninja. But God, she's such a hideous Mary Sue under Whedon it's not funny. She's perfect and special and even most of her flaws come back to benefit her in the end, and it annoys me.

(I like kitty)

 

[MaxwellSmart]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

It annoys me that it's so blatant. Yes, she's a ninja. But God, she's such a hideous Mary Sue under Whedon it's not funny. She's perfect and special and even most of her flaws come back to benefit her in the end, and it annoys me.

What about Colossus then? Does he annoy you because he can be both a raging animal and a sensitive artist?

All these things are part of a character's dichotomy. I do agree that it's works out to be a little too blatantly foreshadowing to have Kitty say she doesn't trust Emma and then have Kitty be the one that has to take her down.

 

[Caduceus]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

Yes, a bit. I don't blame Whedon for that, as much as I do Kitty because it's fairly well known he's a Kitty fanboy- coughBuffycough- and this is in a lot of ways him going "OMG, KITTY IZ SO COOL!!111". That offends me, in a vague kind of way.

Colossus has falllen victim to the inevitable Marvel's belief that adding depth and dimension to a character are very systematic, almost blocked out processes. First, he was Strong Russian Farmboy. Then, when they decided that the communist scum weren't automatically stupid, he became Strong Russian Farmboy With Artistic Talent and Gooey Centre Under Hard Exterior. For better or worse, it is entirely possible and entirely likely that in a more realistic world, Piotr would just be a dumb farmboy.

I understand we're interested in these stories and characters for a variety of reasons, and one of those is beecause they're interesting- nobody reads stories about turnip farmers because thats boring as all hell- but when you've got hundreds of thousands of characters with complex upbringings and Hidden Depths, having a simple character is far more interesting, to me at least. I'm not *****ing that I don't want characters to be complex, because I'll freely admit to being a hack, but I do want them to be interesting.

Kitty...I like Kitty. Sometimes. Sorta. but it takes about five minutes to get really sick of Whedon's sassy, wise-cracking uber ethical moral righteous super invulnerable ninja Kitty. Nobody wants to live with a saint, and if she was actually like that, people would have stabbed her years ago.

 

[Hellsbuttmonkey]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

I've noticed on other sites showing how the last page with Kitty is a tribute to a former page - that of Wolverine saying "It's my turn now." after The Hellfire Club thinking they had gotten rid of him.

Yeah, the entire issue is pretty much a tribute to Uncanny #132. The X-Men get their asses handed to them by the Hellfire club, and Wolverine ends up in the sewers and then you have this panel..

Which if I recall correctly something similar was also used in the cartoon as well.

 

[MaxwellSmart]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

First off, good job finding the issue where Wolvie originally made the comment. I'd also like to point out that this really speaks to Whedon's history and research prowess when it comes to comics. I think he gets a lot of unjust criticism for coming from a TV background, and I think it's nods like this that really give him credibility.

Cad, why do you have this image of Kitty being a "saint." She not an overly aggressive type, like Wolverine, but that doesn't make her a "saint." She's quick on her feet and has a lot of training and skill. That's what makes her a credible X-Man. If she didn't have that, she would be a throw away character.

 

[Caduceus]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

First off, good job finding the issue where Wolvie originally made the comment. I'd also like to point out that this really speaks to Whedon's history and research prowess when it comes to comics. I think he gets a lot of unjust criticism for coming from a TV background, and I think it's nods like this that really give him credibility.

Fanboy cred. It's refreshing to have someone know what they're writing about though, definitely.

Cad, why do you have this image of Kitty being a "saint." She not an overly aggressive type, like Wolverine, but that doesn't make her a "saint." She's quick on her feet and has a lot of training and skill. That's what makes her a credible X-Man. If she didn't have that, she would be a throw away character.

I'm using it in the general sense; as a way to describe someone bereft of any flaw. Someone who's perfect in every way, who can do no wrong, and who'se wrongs only make a right. She gets all sad when she kills, but still idolizes Logan; is that not hypocritical? She's convicted and a brilliant orator- Mekanix- and she can never do wrong. That kind of perfection creates this horrible horrible feelign of uselessness and inferiority in people. It doesn't make them feel good about themselves, it makes them hate the saint. Thats why most saints are martyrs.

 

[Fuzzy Birds]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

I'm using it in the general sense; as a way to describe someone bereft of any flaw. Someone who's perfect in every way, who can do no wrong, and who'se wrongs only make a right. She gets all sad when she kills, but still idolizes Logan; is that not hypocritical? She's convicted and a brilliant orator- Mekanix- and she can never do wrong. That kind of perfection creates this horrible horrible feelign of uselessness and inferiority in people. It doesn't make them feel good about themselves, it makes them hate the saint. Thats why most saints are martyrs.

Hang on, if I'm reading this right, you're not making sense. You're criticising Kitty beacuse she's a 'flawless' character, yet you've just admitted she's rather hypocritical.

To be honest, I like Kitty a lot though. There's nothing wrong with appearing flawless, it usually just means the faults are harder to see and buried a little further than others. And as a character, Kitty has actually grown. She's immensely different than when she first appeared years ago.

 

[Caduceus]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

Hang on, if I'm reading this right, you're not making sense. You're criticising Kitty beacuse she's a 'flawless' character, yet you've just admitted she's rather hypocritical.

Weeeeeell, yes and no.

Firstly, you've got the inconsistencies. Whedon's Kitty is different to, say, Austen's Kitty or Claremont's Kitty.

Picking on Whedon's Kitty because it's the one that's here.

I'm saying she's rather hypocritical, not just in herself but in how other characters react to her and around her. Nobody notices the flaws, people don't behave in quite their normal fashion around her.

To be honest, I like Kitty a lot though. There's nothing wrong with appearing flawless, it usually just means the faults are harder to see and buried a little further than others. And as a character, Kitty has actually grown. She's immensely different than when she first appeared years ago.

This, I think, ties back into the changes between writers. Kitty damn well does have flaws, like any character does. The flaws make them human. But under Whedon, it seems almost impossible to see them and thats what I find aggravating.

 

[ProjectX2]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

I've been rereading Morrison's New X-Men, and in his second issue, when Genosha is being attacked by the Sentinels, the Goth chick from The Hellfire Club is in Emma Frost's class. People have probably noticed, but I thought it was some new character Joss Whedon invented.

*goes back to read*

 

[Caduceus]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

I've been rereading Morrison's New X-Men, and in his second issue, when Genosha is being attacked by the Sentinels, the Goth chick from The Hellfire Club is in Emma Frost's class. People have probably noticed, but I thought it was some new character Joss Whedon invented.

*goes back to read*

Nah, he ripped her off Morrison. It's odd- Morrison's run is probably one of the more controversial among fans, and everyone loves Whedon, but he's doing a lot of building off what Morrison made.

 

[ProjectX2]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

The Goth chick has also "been dead for hours". Hmm.

I guess I'll see. I just reread the first 6 issues of Morrison's run. It's still as good as I remember it being. I do wish Frank Quitely didn't have to have all of the fill in artists though.

 

[E]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

The Goth chick has also "been dead for hours". Hmm.

I guess I'll see. I just reread the first 6 issues of Morrison's run. It's still as good as I remember it being. I do wish Frank Quitely didn't have to have all of the fill in artists though.

That was the only flaw in that entire run. And as a reader who came into the run fairly late, those early delays didn't mean anything to me. But if Quitely could have drawn the whole 41 issues....:drooling:

 

[Ice]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

Nah, he ripped her off Morrison. It's odd- Morrison's run is probably one of the more controversial among fans, and everyone loves Whedon, but he's doing a lot of building off what Morrison made.

And that's a good thing. He's telling new stories, yet he's using characters from one of the best runs every on an X-Men book, and paying homage to it.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

So I've been wondering something....


Where and how does all this fit into the "regular" Marvel/X-Men universe? I know that its a bi-monthly thing....but exactly how or does this fit into anything else the characters are doing in the other titles?

I find it hard to believe that the Emma here is the same person in New X-Men. Will the events of Civil War even reach this title? And how does this title affect some of the other monthly X-titles?


Just some stuff I've been wondering.

 

[MaxwellSmart]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

So I've been wondering something....


Where and how does all this fit into the "regular" Marvel/X-Men universe? I know that its a bi-monthly thing....but exactly how or does this fit into anything else the characters are doing in the other titles?

I find it hard to believe that the Emma here is the same person in New X-Men. Will the events of Civil War even reach this title? And how does this title affect some of the other monthly X-titles?


Just some stuff I've been wondering.

This arc at least takes place in between HoM and Civil War.

 

[Hibiki]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

This arc at least takes place in between HoM and Civil War.

So is it safe to say that all is well with emma and the xmen whe nthis is over?

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

This arc at least takes place in between HoM and Civil War.

Hmmm......like Hibiki said...that little nugget of info leads me to believe that based on current continuity that nothing really happens in this then.

Emma and the rest come thru alright and no major loss is involved. Makes it sound like it'll suffer the same hinderance I believed Ultimate Extinction fell victim to -- continuity spoilers. And if that's the case...I have already lost interest---regardless of how good the writer is.

I know you can't do anything major with characters in cross-titles series without interupting what another writer might have planned.....but that's just a pet peeve of mine.

Ugh.....

 

[Hibiki]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

Hmmm......like Hibiki said...that little nugget of info leads me to believe that based on current continuity that nothing really happens in this then.

Emma and the rest come thru alright and no major loss is involved. Makes it sound like it'll suffer the same hinderance I believed Ultimate Extinction fell victim to -- continuity spoilers. And if that's the case...I have already lost interest---regardless of how good the writer is.

I know you can't do anything major with characters in cross-titles series without interupting what another writer might have planned.....but that's just a pet peeve of mine.

Ugh.....

Hopefully that nagana work here anymore girl will die horribly with her stupid emo bull****. Gawd, she's so annoying looking! ANd I thought that old ***** died. Why are there so many women? NO one will really fight women. Except maybe Wolvie. Scratch that.

 

[E]

Re: Astonishing X-Men - series discussion (spoilers)

I find it hard to believe that the Emma here is the same person in New X-Men.

New X-Men by Grant Morrison, or the new one?