Civil War series discussion (spoilers)

[MoS]

Sue is against it. It was already mentioned she was going to be against it.

Not so far she isn't. (Yes, I've read the future spoilers, too.) I suspect that there is a timing issue in Civil War, and that by the scene in the Baxter Building she doesn't know about the attack on Johnny, even though it's implied that it's already happened and been on the news.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Thanks but that wasn't what I wanted to know. B/c we know IM and RR are against it. So what, I want to know if you agree/disagree, who I should include and why?

 

[Victor Von Doom]

Besides, when have they ever been wrong before?

NEVER. :neutral:


I'm required by law to say that....

I will always be against the registration.

I'm actually for both.

I agree that it would be greatly beneficial for a lot of these young kids with powers to get some kinda training. It's what makes all the difference in combat. Along with training comes education. Crisis management, triage tactics, collateral damage evals, etc. They need the proper training to be able to make the big calls.

But I disagree with the full registration. I mean having a file on hand of the superhero and his powers, education level, training and such is helpful......but leave out the secret identity. Hypothetically speaking of course, I mean how safe is Spidey's family if the villains find out who he is? Of course it's easy for Sue to favor disclosure....everyone in her family has powers.

To me it's all about the compromise. They need the training....but if they wanna remain private...let them.

 

[iceman]

This is who I think is for/against it:

FOR: Sue, Reed Richards, Thing, Iron Man, Hank Pym, Ms. Marvel, Bishop, Emma, Spiderwoman, She-Hulk.

AGAINST: Cap, Wolverine, Cyclops, Strange, Torch, YA, Falcon, Fury, Cage, Janet Pym, DD....

What do you guys think?

That seems about right for now. Put Spider-man on the against side. Of course, as we all know, these lines will change in this way:

For: Add Spider-"I-love-you-tony-because-you-give-me-stuff"-Man.

Against: Add Sue, Thing, after they find out Johnny got pulped. Jen Walters. (is that she-hulks non hulk name?)

And I remember readint that thign that said the original x-men team would be split. Here is how I see it--

For:

Warren - not his problem anymore, so time to be a heartless business man

Hank - Smart-guy, and it seems all the science-y smart guys are going to the pro side

Against:

Cyclops - What would Xavier want. (In the end, Cyclops might know better than Xavier)

Iceman - He's the young heart and soul type, so I think he'd go against. Also, the editors hate him, so they'd just use him to balance out numbers.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

To me it's all about the compromise. They need the training....but if they wanna remain private...let them.

For people like Spiderman, I disagree, YA, totally agree.

Reason being b/c Spiderman shouldn't have to be registered if he's proven himself time and again. Plus Fury has files on most of the veterans. He even has one on Sentry. YA now just seems like new warriors waiting to happen. They need to get some training under their belt. Once they do, they should be able to decide whether or not they wanna work for the gov't. Also, I don't understand why the pyms are there. I thought hank Pym went to europe to teach. Why do U.S. affairs apply to him?

 

[Ice]

Iceman will be against. In the 198 'handbook', they have him down as one of the first mutants to retaliate in situations like these where the gov't is involved.

But as it was said in Wizard, we will find out what the original X-Men think and what goes on with them (minus Jean, of course, and that does inculde Warren) in their Civil War mini.

 

[Ice]

 

[Bass]

I was about to launch into a tyraid of how the metaphor just doesn't work, but I stopped and spared all of you who get ill when the scroll down to ignore long posts. :wink:

One thing of note - I know the metaphor is supposed to be about the current political climate of 5 years ago in reference to the Patriot act and all this "civil liberties or national safety" dilemma... but here's what I thought was a cool metaphor for the series -

The superheroes of Marvel Manhattan are seen as a danger to children.

The superheroes are openly attacked, both verbally and physically, in the streets by civilians.

The government threatens to regulate or completely end superheroes as a concept.

Some of the superheroes decide to continue as they have always been and face the consequences.

Others champion a form of their own form of self-regulation in order to curb public unrest.

Now I don't know about you - but this is a perfect metaphor for what happened to the entire US comics industry in the 1950s.

Just look:

The comics of the US, due to Frederick Wertham's book, The Seduction of the Innocent, are seen as a danger to children.

The US comics are openly attack verbally, and physically burned in the streets by civilians.

The political climate threatens to ban the comic book medium in its entirety.

Other companies create a form of self-regulation called the Comics Code in order to curb public unrest and allow them to be produced without government interference.

Sadly, this code kills off certain companies such as all the horror and crime companies, which, some may say suspiciously, were the top-selling comics at the time.

See what I mean?

I think that would've been fascinating when you consider that Marvel was the first major comics company to scrap the Comics Code in its entirity. I'm aware several independent comics and even DC Vertigo's line were all unapproved by the Comics Code, but Marvel were the first major, mainstream company to abandon it on all of their titles. A big move.

Plus, if you look at the sides, Captain America, a metaphorical icon representing the crime and horror comics built out of World War II in the 40s, and the only real Marvel superhero still left from the era of a non-Comics Code comics industry, makes perfect sense as the anti-registration/Comics Code figure head, a man who fought for his freedom more so than any of his contemporaries. While Mr Fantastic, the leader of the Fantastic Four and the first main character of superhero comics in the 60s when the current era of Marvel comics began post-Comics Code, is a perfect metaphorical figurehead for the pro-registration/Comics Code, a man who's entire career is about making a family work together whilst being berated by the public. And instead of Reed trying to acquiesce to the US government, he'd been saying, "We'll create our own internal system for cataloguing superheroes, which the government can view at any time" therefore creating a middle ground between the two sides, eventually having it implimented, with Captain America's side being utterly removed from the superhero world - or if one wanted to change history, have another resolution to the story.

Anyhow... this is just me thinking about stuff. It popped in my head when I read the last page of the first issue for the first time, I think. Thought I'd share it with you. Consider it a rumination, or a rant, whatever's your poison.

 

[Shihad]

Who is iron man fighting?
Is that Prodigy from Spider-mans Identiy Crisis?

 

[E]

I was about to launch into a tyraid of how the metaphor just doesn't work, but I stopped and spared all of you who get ill when the scroll down to ignore long posts. :wink:

One thing of note - I know the metaphor is supposed to be about the current political climate of 5 years ago in reference to the Patriot act and all this "civil liberties or national safety" dilemma... but here's what I thought was a cool metaphor for the series -

The superheroes of Marvel Manhattan are seen as a danger to children.

The superheroes are openly attacked, both verbally and physically, in the streets by civilians.

The government threatens to regulate or completely end superheroes as a concept.

Some of the superheroes decide to continue as they have always been and face the consequences.

Others champion a form of their own form of self-regulation in order to curb public unrest.

Now I don't know about you - but this is a perfect metaphor for what happened to the entire US comics industry in the 1950s.

Just look:

The comics of the US, due to Frederick Wertham's book, The Seduction of the Innocent, are seen as a danger to children.

The US comics are openly attack verbally, and physically burned in the streets by civilians.

The political climate threatens to ban the comic book medium in its entirety.

Other companies create a form of self-regulation called the Comics Code in order to curb public unrest and allow them to be produced without government interference.

Sadly, this code kills off certain companies such as all the horror and crime companies, which, some may say suspiciously, were the top-selling comics at the time.

See what I mean?

I think that would've been fascinating when you consider that Marvel was the first major comics company to scrap the Comics Code in its entirity. I'm aware several independent comics and even DC Vertigo's line were all unapproved by the Comics Code, but Marvel were the first major, mainstream company to abandon it on all of their titles. A big move.

Plus, if you look at the sides, Captain America, a metaphorical icon representing the crime and horror comics built out of World War II in the 40s, and the only real Marvel superhero still left from the era of a non-Comics Code comics industry, makes perfect sense as the anti-registration/Comics Code figure head, a man who fought for his freedom more so than any of his contemporaries. While Mr Fantastic, the leader of the Fantastic Four and the first main character of superhero comics in the 60s when the current era of Marvel comics began post-Comics Code, is a perfect metaphorical figurehead for the pro-registration/Comics Code, a man who's entire career is about making a family work together whilst being berated by the public. And instead of Reed trying to acquiesce to the US government, he'd been saying, "We'll create our own internal system for cataloguing superheroes, which the government can view at any time" therefore creating a middle ground between the two sides, eventually having it implimented, with Captain America's side being utterly removed from the superhero world - or if one wanted to change history, have another resolution to the story.

Anyhow... this is just me thinking about stuff. It popped in my head when I read the last page of the first issue for the first time, I think. Thought I'd share it with you. Consider it a rumination, or a rant, whatever's your poison.

Post of the day.

Brilliant.

 

[Random]

Very well done Bass.


I just want to say is I dont like metaphors that much, cause unless if they are suttle (Like what Bass had) It just seems dumb and forced. Cause really you can make any metaphor with pretty much anything

 

[Bass]

Metaphors are meant to be invisible. The magician doesn't tell you how he's doing the trick in front of your eyes.

I'm glad you like the idea, guys. But it ain't Civil War. Civil War is a metaphor about the Patriot Act, and it's being very heavy-handed about it. Shame. In a way, it could've been about something more.

I'm glad you liked the idea. I think it could've been something.

 

[J. Agamemnon]

Metaphors are meant to be invisible. The magician doesn't tell you how he's doing the trick in front of your eyes.

I'm glad you like the idea, guys. But it ain't Civil War. Civil War is a metaphor about the Patriot Act, and it's being very heavy-handed about it. Shame. In a way, it could've been about something more.

I'm glad you liked the idea. I think it could've been something.

Wind in my face!!! I was blown away by your earlier statement. Great point...as for the one I quoted, A metaphor can pretty much be whatever you make it. I agree with the Patriot Act idea b/c I said it a few posts ago. But, I actually like your idea of what it could be, a whole lot better. That should be post of the year. If you don't have that, then make one and give the award to yourself.

 

[Ice]

Wind in my face!!! I was blown away by your earlier statement. Great point...as for the one I quoted, A metaphor can pretty much be whatever you make it. I agree with the Patriot Act idea b/c I said it a few posts ago. But, I actually like your idea of what it could be, a whole lot better. That should be post of the year. If you don't have that, then make one and give the award to yourself.

Too early in the year for that. We still have 7 months to go. And knowing Bass and Moony, this will likely be nothing to what they will later on say/do.

 

[thee great one]

I found the issue to be pretty good. I have the same complaints that have been posted by E, Rhyo, and Bass. The art was great and the Cap scene made the book.

The dumbest thing is the Watcher. He is such a plot device. There is no reason for him to be that close. He can see everything from the moon.

It does makes sense with all that has been happening with Wolverine's brainwashing, Avengers Disassembled, Mutant thing, and some others but it still felt rushed and out of nowhere.

B+

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

The dumbest thing is the Watcher. He is such a plot device. There is no reason for him to be that close. He can see everything from the moon.

:sure: Wtf you on about TGO??! The Watcher was awesome and did just what he was supposed to do. He just stood there being all neutral and foreboding

It was awesome...

 

[ProjectX2]

He means The Watcher can see perfectly fine from the moon.

 

[Ice]

The dumbest thing is the Watcher. He is such a plot device. There is no reason for him to be that close. He can see everything from the moon.

You wanna see what the reason is first? As in see what he has to say? Thanks.

 

[Bass]

The dumbest thing is the Watcher. He is such a plot device. There is no reason for him to be that close. He can see everything from the moon.B+

I agree with Tog. It's not that the Watcher is involved in the story, it's that, in order to watch he feels he has to go onto Earth, into the room with all the heroes, when he can see fine from the moon. I thought this was a stupid thing.

I love the way Millar goes to another scene as soon as the Watcher arrives, because the scene would continue like this:

Wolverine: That Watcher guy only watches things that are important?
Iron Man: Yes.
Wolverine: So why aren't we asking him questions?
Iron Man: Aaaah...
Mr Fantastic: Ummm...
Wolverine: Hey, bub. What's gonna happen?
Uatu: ... You can see me?
Spider-Man: You're fifty foot tall.
Uatu: Oh. I thought you couldn't see things that big.
Mr Fantastic: What?
Uatu: Hey Reed. How's it hanging? You figured out about the Celestial seed yet?
Mr Fantastic: That's another universe, remember? We got Xorn and Bendis.
Uatu: Oh yeah. I thought I was being inconsistent.
Wolverine: Bub, can you tell us what's going to happen next?
Uatu: How about I tell you a magical tale? It begins as all good tales do... What if... Wolverine got his memory back?
Wolverine: I got it back.
Uatu: Really? How?
Wolverine: Fell into a plot hole.
Uatu: Oh. Y'know... you don't look much different. In fact, you look the same. I would've thought getting your memory back would change you a little.
Wolverine: Nope.
Uatu: Okay. What about... What if... Xorn made sense?
Iron Man: Stop wasting our time and tell us the future.
Uatu: Not if you ask like that.
Wolverine: Please?
Uatu: Wow. You really have changed. And anyhow I can't tell you anything as it may change everything, so there.
Spider-Man: What might it change?
Uatu: It might change the fact that Captain America will go rogue and Iron Man will become his opposite and it will spark a civil wa... OO!
*Spidey snickers, Wolverine gives him a high five*
Uatu: Oh! That's it! Tricking me! Well, I'm not going to help you in 15 days when Hulk returns and whoops all your asses.
*Watcher flies off to the moon, halfway there he realises*
Uatu: Dammit! ... I'm the worst Watcher ever.
*Watcher lands on the moon*
Uatu: X-51, the Machine Man. Where are you? You must tell me what I see.
X-51: My robot brain needs beer, fleshy one with oversized novelty head.
Uatu: Dammit, Ellis. I wish I was on that Earth X universe. Yeah I was blind and amoral, but at least I was relevant.
X-51: I don't know how you can open that noise tube of yours and not want to kill yourself.
Monica: X-51! Quick! We've got to blow stuff up and not suffer any repercussions!
X-51: Yes! No Civil War 616 continuity for us! We can do what we want! Beer!
Elsa: Violence!
Tabby: Explosions!
The Captain: Hookers!
All: NEXTWAVE!
*look at Uatu who's standing with them in a Nextwave pose*
Uatu: C-Can I come too? Please?

DOES NEXTWAVE LET THE WATCHER LEAVE THE OVER-HYPED CONTINUITY-RIDDEN 616 MARVEL UNIVERSE FOR THE WONDROUS NONSENSE OF NEXTWAVE MARVEL? DOES THE WATCHER THINK MORE ABOUT HOW THINGS WOULD BE BETTER IF THE EARTH X TRILOGY WAS CANON?

TO BE CONTINUED...

 

[Ice]

I agree with Tog. It's not that the Watcher is involved in the story, it's that, in order to watch he feels he has to go onto Earth, into the room with all the heroes, when he can see fine from the moon. I thought this was a stupid thing.

No duh he can watch fine from the moon.

But-

Who the hell said he only came to watch? :?

Like Dr. Strange said, his appearance means nothing good, meaning they're going to have a talk of things yet to come that could spell doom for a lot of people, if not everyone.