Captain America - The Winter Soldier (SPOILERS)

[DIrishB]

This is for discussion about Captain America - The Winter Soldier, and will include spoilers. So if you haven't seen the film yet and don't want to be spoiled, stop reading.

Anyway, it was a good film. I still prefer Avengers better, and don't think it was quite as good as the reviews make it out to be (I'll chalk that up to hype), nor is it fair to compare it to The Dark Knight, but it was very good.

Evans was great, Johanssen was great, Jackson was great, Mackie was great, yeah, the cast did a good job. While Winter Soldier/Bucky only had like 5 lines the entire movie, he was a decent villain, and his costume was uber-awesome.

The Hydra plot was cool, and I liked how it continued the Hydra plot from the first movie, while tonally being a very different film. The Russos' direction was great, overall.

My only complaints was the film was a bit dry and flat in certain portions, mainly in terms of characterization. The Cap/Peggy scene was flat, and should've been more emotional.

Also, towards the end, the last Helicarrier falls into the bay and Cap falls into the water unconscious. Bucky/Winter Soldier saves him. I really wish they'd intercut Bucky saving Cap with the scene from the first film where skinny Steve is saved by Bucky from being beat up in the alley by the guy who was acting like a jerk in the movie theater. Feel like that would've echoed Bucky regaining some sense of his self and reflect how Bucky was always there for Steve. Also feel like a few more flashbacks to the 40's would've helped compare Steve's life and character in the past versus present day.

But overall, really good film. I still think Avengers is the best MCU film, but this one is certainly smarter.

The mid credits scene was fun, giving us our first glimpse of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. It also seemed to imply their powers are derived from Hydra experimenting with Loki's staff from Avengers (since they can't be mutants due to Fox owning the rights). The post credits scene was a bit more unclear. It shows Bucky visiting the Captain America display at the museum, and seeing his picture/name, where he realizes Cap was telling the truth about who he was. Just wonder what that means for the future.

 

[DIrishB]

Also, the scene on the roof where Cap, Widow, and Falcon interrogate Agent Sitwell essentially confirmed Zola is the Clairvoyant. While he can't predict the future like an actual clairvoyant, he can gauge it based on your past, data stored about you tax records, psychological profiles, job history, school grades, etc. Its not outright stated Zola is the Clairvoyant, but it seems blatantly obvious.

Remains to be seen how Zola's destruction in Cap 2 will affect Agents of SHIELD. I have a feeling Zola may have uploaded himself to the flash drive before the missile destroyed the bunker the 1950-1970's era computers were in, which Widow then uploaded to the internet at the end, possibly unknowingly allowing Zola to upload himself to the internet.

Also, Stephen Strange was mentioned by Sitwell as a target for the helicarriers during the roof interrogation scene. Makes me think we just may see that Dr. Strange film in the next few years. Can't wait to see what announcements will be made at Comic Con this year.

 

[vintsukka]

Did anyone see anything interesting when the helicarriers were scanning for targets in NYC? All I remember is Stark Tower and the White House with the text "President Ellis". Who was the guy in the park that was zoomed on for a little while? You'd think there would be some hidden tidbits there, but it goes by pretty fast. Might find something when the Blu-ray comes out and we can pause the image.

Also, the scene on the roof where Cap, Widow, and Falcon interrogate Agent Sitwell essentially confirmed Zola is the Clairvoyant. While he can't predict the future like an actual clairvoyant, he can gauge it based on your past, data stored about you tax records, psychological profiles, job history, school grades, etc. Its not outright stated Zola is the Clairvoyant, but it seems blatantly obvious.

Has the Clairvoyant shown that he can predict the future? Most of the time he's just used intimate information about people against them, which can be explained by him having access to SHIELD files, like they discovered in 1x16.

 

[Captain France]

I'm like DIB about Zola downloading his mind in the usb flashdrive or already on the net.. there are some proofs:

1- Nothing seems to work in the room before the flashdrive is inserted in the blue thing... but how the elevator brings the two to the room if there is nothing turned on? Zola is clearly playing a game here.
2- A flashdrive has a lot more space memory than all the old computer in the room.
3- Zola can dialog with Cap and BW in real time, and change from screen to screen in no time.. which means he is very fast to do computer things.
4- Zola could be already downloaded on the net as he knows S.H.I.E.L.D. is coming and can located all vehicles and people.

All these things remember me the Ultimates Annual with Zola, Cap and Falcon.


At the end of Cap 2, H.Y.D.R.A. is always in place, and Maria Hill working for Stark Industries rings a bell to Tony Stark working with governement (controlled by H.Y.D.R.A.) to catch superpowered people with the help of Ultrons and bring Civil War. If not why a Hulkbuster vs. Hulk ^^


I was extremely surprised when Sitwell was throwed against a truck by Bucky.. I thought to have Sitwell as a mole working for Fury to collect information on H.Y.D.R.A.

 

[DIrishB]

Did anyone see anything interesting when the helicarriers were scanning for targets in NYC? All I remember is Stark Tower and the White House with the text "President Ellis". Who was the guy in the park that was zoomed on for a little while? You'd think there would be some hidden tidbits there, but it goes by pretty fast. Might find something when the Blu-ray comes out and we can pause the image.

My thoughts exactly. I was trying to read the names but as you said, went by too quick. Glad they referenced President Ellis, who was also the president in Iron Man 3 if memory serves correctly.

Has the Clairvoyant shown that he can predict the future? Most of the time he's just used intimate information about people against them, which can be explained by him having access to SHIELD files, like they discovered in 1x16.

I'm thinking he can't actually "see" the future, only accurately gauge it based on information gleaned from specific subject's pasts. Its also interesting that he couldn't "see" Coulson's resurrection, which he referenced in last episode and was mentioned when Coulson was captured by Raina/Centipede, likely due to the Tahiti bunker being "off the grid" and unable for Zola to access.

I'm like DIB about Zola downloading his mind in the usb flashdrive or already on the net.. there are some proofs:

1- Nothing seems to work in the room before the flashdrive is inserted in the blue thing... but how the elevator brings the two to the room if there is nothing turned on? Zola is clearly playing a game here.
2- A flashdrive has a lot more space memory than all the old computer in the room.
3- Zola can dialog with Cap and BW in real time, and change from screen to screen in no time.. which means he is very fast to do computer things.
4- Zola could be already downloaded on the net as he knows S.H.I.E.L.D. is coming and can located all vehicles and people.

All these things remember me the Ultimates Annual with Zola, Cap and Falcon.


At the end of Cap 2, H.Y.D.R.A. is always in place, and Maria Hill working for Stark Industries rings a bell to Tony Stark working with governement (controlled by H.Y.D.R.A.) to catch superpowered people with the help of Ultrons and bring Civil War. If not why a Hulkbuster vs. Hulk ^^


I was extremely surprised when Sitwell was throwed against a truck by Bucky.. I thought to have Sitwell as a mole working for Fury to collect information on H.Y.D.R.A.

I also loved the shot at the end showing Rumlow all burned after the Helicarrier crashed into the Triskelion and he was burned/injured. Gives a good reason for him to wear a mask if he returns in a future movie. Either way, whether he returns or not, was a cool nod/Easter egg for fans referencing a possible evolution to his comic look in the future.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Has the Clairvoyant shown that he can predict the future? Most of the time he's just used intimate information about people against them, which can be explained by him having access to SHIELD files, like they discovered in 1x16.

They're always saying stuff like, "the clairvoyant told me you would come." So, yeah. Even just the fact that he/it knew they would come to the assisted living home to check on Nash and was able to manipulate them into tracking Deathlock to the racetrack etc.


On another note, one of my favourite continuity Easter eggs of this movie was finding out that Senator Sterns from Iron Man 2 works with Hydra. That was awesome.

I really want to know what happens next. With Fury (will poor Coulson ever get ahold of him?). With Bucky. With Agent 13. I don't want to wait a few more years!

 

[DIrishB]

They're always saying stuff like, "the clairvoyant told me you would come." So, yeah. Even just the fact that he/it knew they would come to the assisted living home to check on Nash and was able to manipulate them into tracking Deathlock to the racetrack etc. On another note, one of my favourite continuity Easter eggs of this movie was finding out that Senator Sterns from Iron Man 2 works with Hydra. That was awesome.

Yeah that was a nice surprise. Not only him showing up, but playing a large part in revealing Hydra had infiltrated SHIELD, and showing Sitwell was a Hydra double agent.

I really want to know what happens next. With Fury (will poor Coulson ever get ahold of him?). With Bucky. With Agent 13. I don't want to wait a few more years!

Agreed. We'll know what happens with Fury in next years Age of Ultron (so you'll only have to wait one year), unless he happens to show up in another appearance on AoS, which is a possibility. Doubt we'll see Bucky again until Cap 3, so we've got a couple years to wait for that. And Agent 13? Well it's shown she joined the CIA at the end of Cap 2 (and Maria Hill joining Stark Industries). It's possible we may see Sharon Carter (they never revealed her last name in Cap 2, so Cap has no idea she's Peggy's niece, though Sharon did mention her aunt, I think when talking with Steve in his apartment hallway, a throw away reference no one but fans would know had any meaning) on AoS later in the season, as a CIA agent, possibly helping Coulson's team.

I'm just wondering what this means for AoS. With SHIELD essentially disbanded, how are they going to continue? Not only in the meta sense of it being called Agents of SHIELD, but in a plot sense of funding for the jet, SHIELD resources (financial and intelligence), etc.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Agreed. We'll know what happens with Fury in next years Age of Ultron (so you'll only have to wait one year), unless he happens to show up in another appearance on AoS, which is a possibility. Doubt we'll see Bucky again until Cap 3, so we've got a couple years to wait for that. And Agent 13? Well it's shown she joined the CIA at the end of Cap 2 (and Maria Hill joining Stark Industries). It's possible we may see Sharon Carter (they never revealed her last name in Cap 2, so Cap has no idea she's Peggy's niece, though Sharon did mention her aunt, I think when talking with Steve in his apartment hallway, a throw away reference no one but fans would know had any meaning) on AoS later in the season, as a CIA agent, possibly helping Coulson's team.

Yeah, they introduced all these cool new characters (Agent 13, Falcon, Crossbones) and dug deeper into some established ones (Fury, Widow), reintroduced Bucky as Winter Soldier, and now I have to wait at least a year to find out more about them. The worst is Bucky though. His story is still SO wide open.

I'm just wondering what this means for AoS. With SHIELD essentially disbanded, how are they going to continue? Not only in the meta sense of it being called Agents of SHIELD, but in a plot sense of funding for the jet, SHIELD resources (financial and intelligence), etc.

Info for the episode in 2 weeks (entitled Providence) says that they're on the run from the military, being hunted by Glen Talbot, and uncovering SHIELD secrets.


Also, did anyone else think Zola was done perfectly in this film? I got SO excited when I saw the camera on top of the big screen start to move. That couldn't have been done better.

 

[DIrishB]

Info for the episode in 2 weeks (entitled Providence) says that they're on the run from the military, being hunted by Glen Talbot, and uncovering SHIELD secrets.

That makes me wonder if next episode "Turn, Turn, Turn" and "Providence" both occur during the events of Captain America - The Winter Soldier, since if they're being pursued by Talbot in "Providence", that indicates the internal war between SHIELD and Hydra is still going on, though that war is over by the end of Cap 2 (at least in terms of SHIELD rooting out the Hydra double agents, and SHIELD then disbanding itself). So I'm wondering if AoS Episode 16 "End of the Beginning" (this week's episode), Episode 17 "Turn, Turn, Turn" (next week's episode), and "Providence" (April 15's episode) all occur over the span of several days, at the same time as the events of Cap 2.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

Also, did anyone else think Zola was done perfectly in this film? I got SO excited when I saw the camera on top of the big screen start to move. That couldn't have been done better.

Yeah, I thought that was great. Especially since it remained unspoiled for me. One of the bad things (obviously) about reading some comic book sites is that a lot of stuff gets spoiled, so it's always really fun when something makes it through the cracks.

As I wrote on the other thread, I really liked it. Can't think of too much to complain about really. I did think Falcon got a bit too much screen time, especially at the end when he got in the fist fight with Rumlow. It threw off the pacing of Cap's fight with Winter Soldier...for me at least. A minor quibble though.

I really think Captain America has become the strongest of the Marvel independent franchises. Hopefully it does big business this weekend, as I think it's as strong as their Iron Man franchise and better than Thor by a large margin.

 

[Captain Canuck]

That makes me wonder if next episode "Turn, Turn, Turn" and "Providence" both occur during the events of Captain America - The Winter Soldier, since if they're being pursued by Talbot in "Providence", that indicates the internal war between SHIELD and Hydra is still going on, though that war is over by the end of Cap 2 (at least in terms of SHIELD rooting out the Hydra double agents, and SHIELD then disbanding itself). So I'm wondering if AoS Episode 16 "End of the Beginning" (this week's episode), Episode 17 "Turn, Turn, Turn" (next week's episode), and "Providence" (April 15's episode) all occur over the span of several days, at the same time as the events of Cap 2.

I read an interview with the writers of Cap 2 at Superherohype.com where they said the whole movie takes place over the course of three days, which they did on purpose so that I would make sense that cap didn't have time to get in contact with Iron Man or any of the other Avengers to help out. I don't know if that means the three Agents of SHIELD episodes don't take place during the movie, but if they don't, it may be that the military is investigating and shutting down all the remnants of SHIELD in the aftermath of TWS, but Coulson's team isn't ready to disband so they go on the run and are assumed to be Hydra.

Yeah, I thought that was great. Especially since it remained unspoiled for me. One of the bad things (obviously) about reading some comic book sites is that a lot of stuff gets spoiled, so it's always really fun when something makes it through the cracks.

As I wrote on the other thread, I really liked it. Can't think of too much to complain about really. I did think Falcon got a bit too much screen time, especially at the end when he got in the fist fight with Rumlow. It threw off the pacing of Cap's fight with Winter Soldier...for me at least. A minor quibble though.

I think one sort of complaint that I had was that it was SO big that they couldn't really do everything super well. They did a lot of things well, but like DIB said somewhere else, the scene where Cap visits Peggy fell flat - to the point that they probably should have cut it and maybe saved it for a director's cut. More importantly though, I wanted to see more Winter Soldier. I mentioned above that I'm frustrated I have to wait a couple years to get the next part of his story. I wanted Bucky to be developed more.

I guess it comes down to this: the movie is called Captain America: The Winter Soldier, so I expected it to mostly be about Bucky, but Brock Rumlow (Cross Bones) was actually a more significant secondary villain in the movie than Bucky was (although the fight scenes with Bucky were way cooler). They baited us with the title and the trailer and then the movie just was something completely different than I expected. And they did that on purpose, and they totally pulled it off because the movie was surprising and fantastic. But as much as I love what it was, part of me can't help being a tiny bit upset about what it wasn't.

I really think Captain America has become the strongest of the Marvel independent franchises. Hopefully it does big business this weekend, as I think it's as strong as their Iron Man franchise and better than Thor by a large margin.

It made $10.2 million domestically just on Thursday and over $100 million overseas before that. I think it's in good shape.

But the Captain America franchise has a hurdle to get over that Iron Man doesn't: he's overtly American. Several of my Canadian friends really didn't like The First Avenger because it was so in your face about the American stuff. The part of the movie where Cap is touring with the war bonds show IS pretty over the top rah rah America, but not because they tried to make a movie tooting the US' horn, but b/c that's what the period was like. The First Avenger is a WWII period piece and it worked really well at that level. Maybe I don't mind because I lived in the US for 10 years, or maybe I get it because I like the character outside of the movies, I don't know. Not every Canadian dislikes Captain America, but some do, so I feel like Cap probably is never going to do as well as Iron Man outside the US b/c he's an overtly patriotic superhero and that's just not going to work for some people who aren't from the US.

But they're wrong. Iron man 1 was pretty perfect, but 2 was far from it and 3 was... I'm still not sure how I feel about it. But both Cap movies were better than Iron Man 3, in my opinion, and FAR better than Iron Man 2. I'm not sure how to compare them with the first Iron Man because they all work so well in their respective genres, but the genres are SO completely different that it's just apples and oranges.

 

[Zeek]

Man, I loved the Peggy scene, I thought it was plenty emotional. Maybe I was just swept in the movie as a whole, or was riding high on previous emotional scenes, but I really liked the earlier quiet moments of the film as a whole. It just felt so darn SAD. Poor Cap.

 

[Ice]

I saw the movie last night and completely loved it. Especially seeing Batroc as an actual cool character and not silly like in the comics.

And Danny Pudi! I totally cheered.

Everything was just so amazing. The Russo's did a superb job with this. Marvel was smart getting them back for Cap 3.

 

[DIrishB]

Man, I loved the Peggy scene, I thought it was plenty emotional. Maybe I was just swept in the movie as a whole, or was riding high on previous emotional scenes, but I really liked the earlier quiet moments of the film as a whole. It just felt so darn SAD. Poor Cap.

It tried to be emotional, but it wasn't. Like I said, it just fell flat.

Should have utilized a flashback scene.

I saw the movie last night and completely loved it. Especially seeing Batroc as an actual cool character and not silly like in the comics. And Danny Pudi! I totally cheered.

Yes!

Everything was just so amazing. The Russo's did a superb job with this. Marvel was smart getting them back for Cap 3.

Agreed...overall, anyway.

 

[DARKKNIGHT]

I thought the Peggy scene worked. It could have had a bit more punch, but I was fine with what it was. It seemed like it Steve has been visiting her before the scene, so it wasn't like it was the first time he's seen her since WWII. They could have heightened the Alzheimer's stuff though.

 

[Zeek]

It tried to be emotional, but it wasn't. Like I said, it just fell flat. Should have utilized a flashback scene.

But I don't think it did - fall flat, I mean. You're talking about it like it absolutely did, and I don't think it did, possibly by proximity to other scenes in the movie.

Ah well, agree to disagree.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I thought the Peggy scene worked. It could have had a bit more punch, but I was fine with what it was. It seemed like it Steve has been visiting her before the scene, so it wasn't like it was the first time he's seen her since WWII. They could have heightened the Alzheimer's stuff though.

Yeah, I actually didn't catch that she had Alzheimer's until the second time I saw it (just saw it again). They should have played that up a bit.

Also, did anyone else LOVE that the helicarrier commander was the reincarnation of Grand Moff Tarkin? "You may fire when ready."

And finally, in the mid-credits sequence, Strucker says that SHIELD hadn't know what they had with Loki's sceptre/spear and that it was powering their experiments. It gave Loki the ability to mind control people and it seemed to influence the Avengers when they all were arguing and Banner picked it up. I wonder if the stone in the sceptre is the mind gem.

 

[DIrishB]

But I don't think it did - fall flat, I mean. You're talking about it like it absolutely did, and I don't think it did, possibly by proximity to other scenes in the movie.

Ah well, agree to disagree.

Yes, I know. I'm just saying it came off that way to me. But perhaps on subsequent viewings it'll work better for me, we'll see.

I still think the scene at the end with Cap falling off the helicarrier unconscious into the water and being rescued by Winter Soldier/Bucky would've been improved by a quick insertion of the street alley fight where Bucky saves Steve from getting his ass kicked from the first movie.

Yeah, I actually didn't catch that she had Alzheimer's until the second time I saw it (just saw it again). They should have played that up a bit.

Also, did anyone else LOVE that the helicarrier commander was the reincarnation of Grand Moff Tarkin? "You may fire when ready."

And finally, in the mid-credits sequence, Strucker says that SHIELD hadn't know what they had with Loki's sceptre/spear and that it was powering their experiments. It gave Loki the ability to mind control people and it seemed to influence the Avengers when they all were arguing and Banner picked it up. I wonder if the stone in the sceptre is the mind gem.

Hmmmm, could very well be. At this point we've seen, what, 2 confirmed Infinity Stones (the Tesseract and the Aether)? Guardians of the Galaxy's "orb" looks likely to be a third. I suppose its possible the scepter contains another stone, though admittedly I think its unlikely since Thanos wouldn't willingly give up a stone to anyone, even an ally (Loki). So with three stones introduced, that leaves 3 more to be introduced in future movies (likely all Phase 3 films, as I don't think Avengers 2 will tread that ground any, except maybe in a post credit scene). As for the Phase 3 films that may introduce them, I think Thor 3, Dr. Strange, and Avengers 3 are likely to each introduce one in each, or possibly a solo film before Avengers 3 since that will inevitably be about Thanos having all the gems and the Infinity Gauntlet.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Hmmmm, could very well be. At this point we've seen, what, 2 confirmed Infinity Stones (the Tesseract and the Aether)? Guardians of the Galaxy's "orb" looks likely to be a third. I suppose its possible the scepter contains another stone, though admittedly I think its unlikely since Thanos wouldn't willingly give up a stone to anyone, even an ally (Loki). So with three stones introduced, that leaves 3 more to be introduced in future movies (likely all Phase 3 films, as I don't think Avengers 2 will tread that ground any, except maybe in a post credit scene). As for the Phase 3 films that may introduce them, I think Thor 3, Dr. Strange, and Avengers 3 are likely to each introduce one in each, or possibly a solo film before Avengers 3 since that will inevitably be about Thanos having all the gems and the Infinity Gauntlet.

I read a theory online that "The Other" - the commander of the chitauri who seems to speak on behalf of Thanos is actually the Grandmaster and is manipulating everyone (including Thanos) for his own purposes. Maybe he is the one who gave Loki the sceptre. It seems unlikely that anyone could manipulate Thanos successfully, but when both Loki and Thanos are involved, everyone is trying to manipulate everyone else.

Or maybe Thanos entrusted Loki with the sceptre to help him steal the Tessaract and conquer the earth, but Thanos was expecting to get both back once the chitauri won earth for Loki.

Anyway, I'm assuming that the sceptre DOES contain the mind gem until it is confirmed otherwise.

 

[DIrishB]

So I went and saw this again earlier today with some friends.

I'm wondering about the scene at the end with Maria Hill applying at Stark Industries. My theory is, with Fury going underground and SHIELD essentially dismantled, I'm wondering if Hill was asked by Fury to get a high ranking position at Stark for a few reasons. One, to keep an eye on Stark, as well as his constantly evolving technology. And two, as a way of possibly rooting out Hydra moles.

Remember, Hydra is apparently everywhere. Not only did they infiltrate SHIELD, but the fact that Senator Sterns worked for Hydra shows they'd also infiltrated politics (and I'm sure this is the case worldwide), and I'm sure they've infiltrated industry and the tech sectors. Remember, in Iron Man 2, Sen. Sterns was dead set on getting the Iron Man tech turned over to the US government. I'm sure he was also planning on obtaining plans or even a suit for Hydra. It stands to reason since the government only obtained the one War Machine suit, he wasn't able to get any of the suit's tech, etc.

I'm sure Hydra had some of their agents infiltrate Stark Industries to try and obtain some info regarding the Iron Man tech, though Tony kept the IM plans/schematics/details on his home computers, and even built them all at home, so those theoretical Hydra agents may have hit a brick wall in terms of obtaining any IM tech. However, given Tony's house was destroyed in Iron Man 3, could Hydra have found some of that tech, either from Tony's house (or some that fell into the water behind his house) or remnants of the blown up/destroyed suits from the final battle in Iron Man 3? I know Tony had gathered some of the stuff from his house in the scene where he throws the mini arc reactor into the water, but did he get all of it? Is it possible Hydra found some of it and is in the process of reverse engineering it?

So yeah, the potential Hydra moles make future plans very interesting.

Spoiler

And with Hydra confirmed to play a role in Avengers 2 (some pics of tanks with the Hydra logo on them from the Avengers 2 set have surfaced online), I'm thinking they are going to ally with Ultron, at least until Ultron likely turns on them.