Captain America: Civil War movie discussion (SPOILERS)

[vintsukka]

Is it ok to start the thread, since it's been out in Europe for a few days already?


I thought the movie was excellent. Maybe not the best MCU movie ever like some have said, but definitely up there. The Russos can really juggle a huge cast and a lot of plot the way Whedon couldn't in AoU, at no point did the movie feel muddled or rushed. I have real confidence in the Russo brothers and Markus & McFeely making the mammoth Infinity War.

It's in the thread title, but I'll say it again: SPOILERS ahead.

I felt the characters all have a voice and their actions and taking sides feels natural and believable (maybe with the exception of Hawkeye, why would he come out of retirement?). I was pleasantly surprised by the ending, where the team ends up being divided. Just having them shake hands and be best friends again would have undermined the whole movie. I'm glad they didn't do that.

The airport fight is massive and long, but it's never unclear what's going on. Each character also gets their moment to shine during the fight. The only weird thing was that Vision didn't feel like the most powerful guy out there like he should. He's a bit of a non-entity for most of the fight.

Spider-Man was great. Holland is spot-on casting and his rapport with Stark was one of the highlights for me. And so was his constant blabbing in the middle of a fight. I like the younger Aunt May and Stark flirting with her was funny. Oh, and the animated eyes are there, they're not explained, but Stark did give him the suit (he was wearing a bad homemade one before that), so you can use that as a rationale.

Black Panther was introduced really well and I can't wait for his solo movie now. The mid credits scene also has me wondering if Bucky will play a part in that movie.

Like speculated, Bucky killing Stark's parents is a big plot point. It's really well done, both their death and a particular mission of Winter Soldier's are plot points, but they're not tied together until the end of the movie. That'll come as a surprise to viewers not intimately familiar with all the backstory, but it's also not treated as a huge thing so those who already know aren't rolling their eyes.

Zemo is a completely different character from Baron Zemo in the comics (as expected), in the movie he's a Sokovian whose whole family was killed in the events of AoU. With limited screen time, I think he's a pretty effective character with a clear plan and understandable reasons for doing what he's doing.

There are big hints of a possible Scarlet Witch/Vision romance in the future. Scarlet Witch's hand gestures still look silly. Scott Lang was mainly comic relief, but Giant Man was really well done. Spidey referring to Empire Strikes Back as "a really old movie" made me feel old. A little surprised they killed off Crossbones, that character had potential. The same technique they used to make Michael Douglas young in Ant-Man was used here on Robert Downey Jr. to great effect. Some nice self-reflecting moments from Vision, I'm really liking the character.

That was me just rambling on with some random thoughts. I'm not the only one here who's already seen it, am I?


Btw, good luck with the timeline, DIrishB. There's a scene toward the end where it cuts between Bucky killing the Starks in 1991 and people in present day watching a recording of it. It cuts at least ten times between the two inside maybe a minute.

 

[DIrishB]

Btw, good luck with the timeline, DIrishB. There's a scene toward the end where it cuts between Bucky killing the Starks in 1991 and people in present day watching a recording of it. It cuts at least ten times between the two inside maybe a minute.

My OCD mind is ready. But that'll have to wait for the Bluray/DVD release later this year for the specific time coding.

I can't wait to see it.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Wow, this movie was excellent. I had a huge grin on my face the ENTIRE time Spidey was on the screen. Yay!

 

[Captain Canuck]

Oh, and the animated eyes are there, they're not explained, but Stark did give him the suit (he was wearing a bad homemade one before that), so you can use that as a rationale.

It actually was sort of explained. His original suit had goggles because his spider-powers ratcheted up his senses and he needed to be able to limit what he was taking in. I assume the eye lenses are helping with that.

The one thing that didn't really make sense in the movie was Zemo's plan. At the beginning he tries to get the Hydra agent to tell him where the other winter soldiers were because he didn't want to have to use the book to find out through Bucky. But his plan wasn't to use the soldiers, but to kill them and lure Cap and Iron Man to the site so he could show them the footage of Bucky killing the Starks and tear them apart. So he had to have the confrontation with Bucky in order to lure Cap to the Russian bunker. So he didn't need to interrogate the Hydra agent. On top of that, his end game was pretty rocky. He got the maid to bring him his breakfast so she would find the murdered psychologist and Iron Man would realize Cap was right and come too. But he had no way of knowing that only Iron Man would come, or that he would find out where to come.

Zemo's character was basically unneeded. Crossbones could have done pretty much everything Zemo did, if they hadn't killed him off in the first 15 minutes.

Besides that glaring hole, the movie was fantastic. I had so much fun watching it.

 

[E]

It actually was sort of explained. His original suit had goggles because his spider-powers ratcheted up his senses and he needed to be able to limit what he was taking in. I assume the eye lenses are helping with that.

Hmm. As someone who hates squinting masks, that's actually...not terrible.

The movie was fantastic. Right up there with Guardians as the best Marvel movies. Spider-man was excellent, and I was very leery of him being in it. With that and all of the various subplots going on, it was weird that this was a Captain America movie and not an Avengers movie, but the title doesn't really make much difference.

One thing I absolutely loved - the homage to Ultimate Nightmare with the Russian super soldiers in the bunker. That was clever and cool.

Some of the stuff with Zemo was a little confusing like Cap pointed out above and will take another viewing to get, but nothing that ruined the movie or anything like that.

So yes - five stars.

 

[Captain Canuck]

One thing I absolutely loved - the homage to Ultimate Nightmare with the Russian super soldiers in the bunker. That was clever and cool.

Huh, I didn't even think about that. I should go back and read that, it's been years.

 

[wyokid]

What is wrong with Zemo's plan?

 

[Captain Canuck]

What is wrong with Zemo's plan?

This:

The one thing that didn't really make sense in the movie was Zemo's plan. At the beginning he tries to get the Hydra agent to tell him where the other winter soldiers were because he didn't want to have to use the book to find out through Bucky. But his plan wasn't to use the soldiers, but to kill them and lure Cap and Iron Man to the site so he could show them the footage of Bucky killing the Starks and tear them apart. So he had to have the confrontation with Bucky in order to lure Cap to the Russian bunker. So he didn't need to interrogate the Hydra agent. On top of that, his end game was pretty rocky. He got the maid to bring him his breakfast so she would find the murdered psychologist and Iron Man would realize Cap was right and come too. But he had no way of knowing that only Iron Man would come, or that he would find out where to come.

Zemo's character was basically unneeded. Crossbones could have done pretty much everything Zemo did, if they hadn't killed him off in the first 15 minutes.

Besides that glaring hole, the movie was fantastic. I had so much fun watching it.

 

[wyokid]

First off, he was only interrogating Bucky because the Hydra agent wouldn't tell him what he needed to know. Secondly, I was under the impression that the Stark footage was at the base and that he was using the threat to bring Cap and Iron Man together to hammer in the final nail. Lastly, he mentions in the final act that he had been studying the Avengers, he know Tony would come alone because it's in Tony's nature to be self centered and selfish. Also Crossbones wouldn't be able to pull that off, not enough brains.

 

[Captain Canuck]

First off, he was only interrogating Bucky because the Hydra agent wouldn't tell him what he needed to know. Secondly, I was under the impression that the Stark footage was at the base and that he was using the threat to bring Cap and Iron Man together to hammer in the final nail.

Right, and he said that. But the whole plan was to use Bucky to drive a wedge between Tony and Steve and then lure them to the bunker and then show them the footage. He couldn't have done that without framing Bucky and then interrogating him and setting him loose.

Lastly, he mentions in the final act that he had been studying the Avengers, he know Tony would come alone because it's in Tony's nature to be self centered and selfish.

Well, maybe, but it's still a stretch that could have gone completely wrong. He couldn't KNOW 100% that Tony would come alone. And on top of that, how could he know that Falcon would tell Tony where to go?

Also Crossbones wouldn't be able to pull that off, not enough brains.

He doesn't have enough brains to pull off this convoluted plan that doesn't really make sense anyway, but he has enough brains to frame Bucky and then leak the video, which is really all he needed to do. Or Crossbones could have been the one doing the work for someone else behind the scenes and saved Zemo for later. My main point is that having Lex Luthor manipulating Superman and Batman into fighting wasn't really very well handled. BUT it's a minor point and I really don't mind that much. The movie was excellent.

 

[vintsukka]

Right, and he said that. But the whole plan was to use Bucky to drive a wedge between Tony and Steve and then lure them to the bunker and then show them the footage. He couldn't have done that without framing Bucky and then interrogating him and setting him loose.

I don't think luring them into the bunker was the initial plan, I'm guessing he was prepared for any number of eventualities. If he'd gotten the info he needed from the Hydra agent he drowned in a sink, he wouldn't have needed Bucky, he could've just gone and retrieved the footage. When he didn't, he framed Bucky. If he'd gotten Bucky to publicly admit to killing the Starks, he wouldn't have needed the footage. But when Bucky escaped (which I assume he didn't plan on but knew could happen), he had to get to the footage in the bunker. Maybe the plan was to release the footage for all to see, but when Cap and Iron Man showed up, he rolled with it and played the tape to them.

Admittedly, I've only seen the movie once and might be hazy on some details, but assuming everything that happened went exactly according to his original plan might be giving him too much credit.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Admittedly, I've only seen the movie once and might be hazy on some details, but assuming everything that happened went exactly according to his original plan might be giving him too much credit.

Fair enough.