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  1. #31
    Administrator E's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    Quote Originally Posted by DIrishB View Post
    That was ok. Not exactly memorable or worthwhile, but much better than the Card Ult Iron Man stuff. I liked the Ult Iron Man vs Hulk mini, though it's been awhile since I read it.
    Ultimate Hulk vs. Iron Man was great. That was Warren Ellis. I really enjoyed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    Really? Worse than Ultimatum and the Ultimate Hulk annual and Ultimate Power?

    It was frustratingly out of sync with the previously established Iron Man, but at least the story was coherent. The second one was also way worse than the first.
    Ultimate Iron Man was worse. It wasn't just what it did to Tony as a character; it was just really poorly written. The bad art didn't help either, but I can't really blame the artist (Kubert? I can't remember).

    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    I refuse to believe that a building in New York only had sleeper agents in it. That's unrealistic and silly. ESPECIALLY in a comic that focused on "realism". That's like saying no one died in the final act of Man of Steel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    Didn't it show them turning back into the Chitauri when they had been shot?
    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    No it did not. You're thinking of Skrulls in the regular universe.
    Yes it did, and I'm pretty sure it was established that the ENTIRE building was sleeper Chitauri agents.
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  2. #32
    Neighbourhood Guardian Mattimeo84's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    Black Widow and Hawkeye are introduced by slaughtering not only bad guys but innocent people, and Nick Fury was just kind of there. Ugh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    Didn't it show them turning back into the Chitauri when they had been shot?
    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    No it did not. You're thinking of Skrulls in the regular universe.
    Quote Originally Posted by E View Post
    Yes it did, and I'm pretty sure it was established that the ENTIRE building was sleeper Chitauri agents.
    Well sort of E
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ultimates 8 - The Experts
    They lose control of their Cameleonic hold after ninety eight minutes.
    Also
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ultimates 8 - The Experts
    Five hundred and twenty-eight sleeper agents.
    528 between two buildings? That seems really really low. Especially when Hawkeye is on the 38th floor and Black widow jumps across a street to land on the floor above him. Assuming she only lost a few floors due to gravity (but also assuming the cocktail on enhancements boost her strength), lets say she jumped from her 43rd floor.

    Assuming an even average number of agents per floor amongst the two buildings, that leaves 6.5 sleeper agents per floor. Hardly possible that was the entire building, not even taking into account we see them taking out an incredible number of people.

    I would be more apt to believe that they agents only had a couple of floors worth of real estate, but that is never mentioned, nor is that what is being stated by us.

    TL;DR, I have to give the point to wyokid and say that they may have killed some innocent civilians.
    Last edited by Mattimeo84; 07-09-2014 at 03:15 PM.
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  3. #33
    The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65 Captain Canuck's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    I just finished reading that issue too and was going to say pretty much the same thing.

    They also mentioned that back in WWII they nuked Japan to finish the chitauri off, so they have a history of taking extreme measures to kill them.
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  4. #34
    The Timeline Guy DIrishB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    Really? Worse than Ultimatum and the Ultimate Hulk annual and Ultimate Power?
    No, you're right. I completely overlooked those. But can you blame me for trying to forget?

    It was frustratingly out of sync with the previously established Iron Man, but at least the story was coherent. The second one was also way worse than the first.
    I never said the story wasn't coherent, I was just mystified at the idiotic need to turn Tony into a superbeing. It'd being giving Batman super-strength or some other insanity. Part of the charm of Tony as a character is that he's a regular guy. Granted, he's a super genius, but it's his intelligence which allows him to hang with the big boys through the abilities of his suit. You add regenerative properties and it robs him of what makes him special or unique by making him just another super powered individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    For me he wasn't lovable. For me he was a giant emotionally void ******* who didn't learn from his mistakes or care about anything but himself.
    This is my biggest gripe with you is that you rely on oversimplifying things you don't agree with, completely missing the intent of those things. For example:

    Everyone was just a giant prick under Millar. Cap was a xenophobic bully and a mockery of the original character,
    Ultimate Cap was a pastiche of the old timey, slightly xenophobic attitude of Americans from the 1940's who were worried about German and Japanese spies due to WWII. It completely makes sense given he's from that era. His attitude and outlook isn't going to change overnight. I explained this to you before: flawed characters are far more interesting than the one dimensional do-gooder Boy Scout approach you seem to prefer. Flaws allow a character to grow and evolve and overcome those flaws.

    Bruce was a whiney and emo horndog,
    Actually, Bruce was whiney (as someone pushed around his whole life and the focal point for the Hulk's rage, it makes sense), Hulk was a horndog.

    Thor was a massive Liberal hippie,
    One of the better changes Millar made. Ult Thor was awesome and far more interesting back then than what he became: one dimensional bruiser who hits stuff with his hammer, as shown in the last few years of Ultimate appearances.

    Betty was an emotionally manipulative *****,
    Aren't all women?

    But again, Betty served as a way of directing the Hulk's rage. Perfectly apropos to the story and plot. Would you have preferred she stay the exact same as the 616 version? If so you're missing the point of the Ultimate universe.

    Hank and Janet were fine until the issue with them just beating the hell out of each other,
    Yes, because having super powers automatically makes the characters incapable of relationship problems and spousal abuse. Again, these are characters with super powers, but the same emotional frailties as regular people. Some regular folks are ticking time bombs who focus their anger, rage, depression, and lack of self confidence into physical abuse of those they supposedly love. That isn't condoning that behavior, it's acknowledging it's existence.

    Black Widow and Hawkeye are introduced by slaughtering not only bad guys but innocent people,
    Those were all Chitauri, as was established in the dialogue and shown in the artwork.

    and Nick Fury was just kind of there. Ugh.
    Right. He's only just there. And he happened to provide the influence for the MCU version which has become beloved by fans.

    Is your problem not the power but that it goes against continuity? My belief is that continuity is there to serve a story and not the other way around. If Millar wanted to he could have squeezed it in.
    It has nothing to do with continuity, it has to do with robbing the character of Tony Stark of what made him special: he's a regular human in a suit, albeit a super genius, he is physically just as vulnerable as anyone else when not in his armor. What Card did perverted the concept of Tony, and unnecessarily changed the character in an unnecessary and moronic way.

    The idea was also inherently flawed. More brain matter (throughout the body) might have made him smarter, but that much brain matter would've made him a god. Also, apparently he's able to regenerate brain matter (something no one else can do) when his limbs are blown off. But even that doesn't make sense as the loss of the brain matter (even if it regrows) would presumably result in memory loss, or motor function loss, etc. He'd have to relearn some of his extensive knowledge any time he lost limb. That was never covered or addressed, because the entire idea was idiotic to begin with and half-assed by Card.

    Why would Millar squeeze in an inherently flawed, unnecessary, and stupid change to a character largely adapted for the new universe? Screw that. I'm glad he retconned it and rightfully ridiculed it.

    Instead he decided to not only make it a cartoon but then mock it. Regardless of how you feel about the story that's just not a cool thing to do.
    Neither is completely altering the abilities and capabilities of a character created by other peoples work. If it had been a worthwhile retcon I wouldn't mind, but it wasn't. It was stupid. Millar called him on it.

    I thought was a cool power (loved how his whole body was a brain) and it even got referenced in Ultimate Human.
    That doesn't make it valid. Nor was it ever referenced again.

    I LOVED the sex tape.
    Yes, because drawing on the antics of Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian is always a great approach to super hero comics.

    In the first two volumes they were obsessed with PR and a sex tape with not only two members but the fact that one of them was a traitor was just juicy. Then it was revealed to be Ultron behind it and it got juicier. I also loved his relationship with Carol Danvers. Really wish Jeph Loeb could have been able to continue with that. I really wish the original plans for Ultimatum happened (was originally MUCH smaller before Bendis decided that it should be an event) because as much as I loved New Ultimates The Ultimates 4 with Ed McGuinness and an actual story arc for Zarda would have been epic. I will say that I did not enjoy the second one that much. Everyone just sort of devolved into psychopaths.
    You and I will never see eye to eye, but it's fun pointing out the flaws in the approach of Loeb and Card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Pickle View Post
    Just going to say this: Hawkeye and Widow didn't kill any innocents. Everyone in both buildings were alien sleeper agents.
    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    I refuse to believe that a building in New York only had sleeper agents in it. That's unrealistic and silly. ESPECIALLY in a comic that focused on "realism". That's like saying no one died in the final act of Man of Steel.
    This whole comment is silly. The most unrealistic thing about the book is that sleeper Chitauri were able to keep regular humans out of their building using security measures? You have a very strange view of reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattimeo84 View Post
    Well sort of E Also 528 between two buildings? That seems really really low. Especially when Hawkeye is on the 38th floor and Black widow jumps across a street to land on the floor above him. Assuming she only lost a few floors due to gravity (but also assuming the cocktail on enhancements boost her strength), lets say she jumped from her 43rd floor. Assuming an even average number of agents per floor amongst the two buildings, that leaves 6.5 sleeper agents per floor. Hardly possible that was the entire building, not even taking into account we see them taking out an incredible number of people. I would be more apt to believe that they agents only had a couple of floors worth of real estate, but that is never mentioned, nor is that what is being stated by us. TL;DR, I have to give the point to wyokid and say that they may have killed some innocent civilians.
    You're assuming every room in the building was full, which is a poor assumption to make and not backed up by anything in the comics. It's entirely possible to assume the Chitauri sleeper agents congregated in only a few dozen rooms or floors, with the other rooms and floors being used for tech, weaponry, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    I just finished reading that issue too and was going to say pretty much the same thing. They also mentioned that back in WWII they nuked Japan to finish the chitauri off, so they have a history of taking extreme measures to kill them.
    Given the habits of the Chitauri I don't blame them. That can easily be taken as a social commentary on the "acceptable" losses of innocent civilians in war.

  5. #35
    Neighbourhood Guardian Mattimeo84's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    Quote Originally Posted by DIrishB View Post
    Those were all Chitauri, as was established in the dialogue and shown in the artwork.
    Just reread the issue. It never states that the entire building was Chitauri. In fact, the best it says is 528 sleeper agents.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIrishB View Post
    You're assuming every room in the building was full, which is a poor assumption to make and not backed up by anything in the comics. It's entirely possible to assume the Chitauri sleeper agents congregated in only a few dozen rooms or floors, with the other rooms and floors being used for tech, weaponry, etc.
    I alluded that based on the idea that the "entire building was Chitauri", that wasn't plausible.

    BUT I also went on to say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattimeo84 View Post
    I would be more apt to believe that they agents only had a couple of floors worth of real estate, but that is never mentioned, nor is that what is being stated by us.
    Just like you. I hope you noticed that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattimeo84 View Post
    TL;DR, I have to give the point to wyokid and say that they may have killed some innocent civilians.
    Quote Originally Posted by DIrishB View Post
    Given the habits of the Chitauri I don't blame them. That can easily be taken as a social commentary on the "acceptable" losses of innocent civilians in war.
    I am not for or against anyone here, I just think this Board is a little to quick to tear apart wyokid. I don't agree with any of his opinions, but that doesn't mean that he can't also be right here and there. Hawkeye and Black Widow and their shield teams probably did kill an inocent bystander. For the same reasons you surmised about the atomic attacks on Japan.
    Last edited by Mattimeo84; 07-09-2014 at 05:34 PM.
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  6. #36
    The Timeline Guy DIrishB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattimeo84 View Post
    Just reread the issue. It never states that the entire building was Chitauri. In fact, the best it says is 528 sleeper agents. I alluded that based on the idea that the "entire building was Chitauri", that wasn't plausible. BUT I also went on to say: Just like you. I hope you noticed that as well. I am not for or against anyone here, I just think this Board is a little to quick to tear apart wyokid. I don't agree with any of his opinions, but that doesn't mean that he can't also be right here and there. Hawkeye and Black Widow and their shield teams probably did kill an inocent bystander. For the same reasons you surmised about the atomic attacks on Japan.
    The point is it's never outright stated or shown there were innocent humans killed, so at best it's a presumption.

    And I give wyo a lot of grief, and disagree with him on just about everything, but I do respect his opinion. I just like to argue against it using my own opinions and logic. That's kind of the point of message boards, especially comic related message boards.

    In fact wyo and I are currently engaged in an experiment. I recommended he read the new Valiant universe titles (of which he really only liked Shadowman), while he recommended I read IDW's Transformers continuity (which so far hasn't been good, but gets better about midway through the 200+ issues released so far). It's an experiment in attempting to understand each other's respective taste in comics.

  7. #37
    Legendary wyokid's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    I liked Eternal Warrior, the first writer's run on Shadowman, Rai, and Bloodshot.

  8. #38
    The Timeline Guy DIrishB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid View Post
    I liked Eternal Warrior, the first writer's run on Shadowman, Rai, and Bloodshot.
    You liked Bloodshot? Huh, I thought you hated it. I enjoy it.

    Also read more of the TF Spotlight issues, they're progressively getting better. I'm looking forward to the stuff that isn't written by Furman.

  9. #39
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    I remember there was a time where I got into an argument with a friend of mine about 616 Tony VS Ultimate Tony, with me arguing for the latter. This was around the time of Civil War (and riiight before the first Iron Man movie), so it wasn't exactly hard to give Ultimate Tony the upper hand, but I do remember loving Ultimate Tony because he was just so jovial all the time. In fact, while I think Cap is the most nuanced member of the team, Tony is pretty easily its most likable (and I don't agree with the EVERYONE IS AN ***HOLE reading of The Ultimates, because it's just not true). Speaking of Cap...

    Quote Originally Posted by DIrishB
    Ultimate Cap was a pastiche of the old timey, slightly xenophobic attitude of Americans from the 1940's who were worried about German and Japanese spies due to WWII. It completely makes sense given he's from that era. His attitude and outlook isn't going to change overnight. I explained this to you before: flawed characters are far more interesting than the one dimensional do-gooder Boy Scout approach you seem to prefer. Flaws allow a character to grow and evolve and overcome those flaws.
    I'd go further and suggest that he isn't xenophobic in the slightest. Nothing he does could be labeled as such, unless you count the France thing, which had a pretty specific context behind it (probably the only context that doesn't make it disrespectful and douchy). In fact, context is important for everything Ultimate Cap does, and is always ignored when people accuse him of being a bully or an ******* or whatever. I don't even mean "he's from a different time" context, I mean what's actually happening in the story. While I think the MCU has caused The Ultimates to feel more dated than ever, and while I have have pretty serious issues with how awful every single woman (save, like, Gail) is in it, there're a lot of layers and nuance there. A surprising number, considering Millar's usual stuff. I'd say it's his second-best work after Red Son.

    Quote Originally Posted by wyokid
    Hank and Janet were fine until the issue with them just beating the hell out of each other
    Actually, no they weren't. Their relationship issues are referenced in their very first appearance together, and Hank's outburst is later given context by Betty in that diner scene.
    Last edited by Zeek; 07-09-2014 at 09:31 PM.

  10. #40
    Legendary wyokid's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    Quote Originally Posted by DIrishB View Post
    You liked Bloodshot? Huh, I thought you hated it. I enjoy it.
    I didn't like HARD Corps so I stopped after the first arc. I dug the first writer though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIrishB View Post
    Also read more of the TF Spotlight issues, they're progressively getting better. I'm looking forward to the stuff that isn't written by Furman.
    Told you it gets better

  11. #41
    The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65 Captain Canuck's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    It's funny because I actually kind of agree with wyo about Ultimates 1 & 2. I had a hard time liking them because they are so cynical and because the team is a spec ops military outfit, not a team of superheroes. They aren't Spider-Man, they do shady things to get the job done. They aren't really nice people at all.

    But it was still well written, and I don't find Loeb's stuff an improvement in any sense of that.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    It's funny because I actually kind of agree with wyo about Ultimates 1 & 2. I had a hard time liking them because they are so cynical and because the team is a spec ops military outfit, not a team of superheroes. They aren't Spider-Man, they do shady things to get the job done. They aren't really nice people at all. But it was still well written, and I don't find Loeb's stuff an improvement in any sense of that.
    Maybe not NICE, but as DIB suggested, it's more than just "they're ***holes" (although I would say that Tony, and to a slightly lesser extent Clint and Thor, are pretty straightforward nice guys).

    But I agree, THE ULTIMATES is certainly cynical, and cynicism can be exhausting. That's why I think it's aged poorly in light of the MCU: the movies have shown that you can modernize superheroes without so much cynicism, and if that possibility exists, it maybe kinda takes away the raison d'Ítre of THE ULTIMATES as a book.

  13. #43
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek View Post
    But I agree, THE ULTIMATES is certainly cynical, and cynicism can be exhausting.
    My take on it is a little different than what I think Captain Canuck's is (or anyone who doesn't like the cynicism in the Ultimates, or maybe just always wants to read nice stories that make them feel good).

    I don't particularly care to read stories that reaffirm my beliefs or make me feel fuzzy inside; those stories are a dime a dozen and have been done to death. I like to read things that make me think and that don't necessarily have happy endings; it's what makes Watchmen so great. So to see how a superhero team might exist and function in a real world setting like Ultimates does and to make it believable is really great. I can't imagine criticizing a story because it's too dark.

    That's not meant as a criticism to people who prefer warm fuzzy stories or dislike dark themes by any means.

    Also, Cap - I think it is interesting that you don't like darker themes like Ultimates and Watchmen and prefer "happier" stories like those usually found in Spider-Man books - but you didn't like All Star Superman, which is probably one of the warmest, "brightest" stories I've ever read.
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  14. #44
    The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65 Captain Canuck's Avatar
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    Quote Originally Posted by E View Post
    Also, Cap - I think it is interesting that you don't like darker themes like Ultimates and Watchmen and prefer "happier" stories like those usually found in Spider-Man books - but you didn't like All Star Superman, which is probably one of the warmest, "brightest" stories I've ever read.
    It's not as simple as "I like happy stories and dislike dark ones." The Death of Gwen Stacy is a dark story and one of my favourites. Also, Harry Osborn as the Goblin is my favourite Spidey villain BECAUSE of how messed up it is when he goes crazy and attacks the people he loves because he feels like he has to.

    And I really liked it when Ultimate Fury had run-ins with Ultimate Peter Parker because the contrast of youthful idealism and hardened cynicism was really cool. The first issue of the Ultimates I ever read was the first annual where Fury hires the retired assassin to kill him just to see if he'll do it and then kills him for accepting the job. That put a bad taste in my mouth, but most of the rest of the series isn't that bad.

    In Watchmen, I just felt like it was so twisted. Nobody was worth rooting for. I actually couldn't finish it. The furthest I got was when Rorchach is remembering cutting dogs heads open or something. (He was taking a rorchach test).

    And All-Star Superman is just weird. I really struggle to like anything Grant Morrison does. Some of it's good (like his Batman stuff), and some is decent (like hi X-Men stuff). But most of it is just so odd. I should go back and reread All-Star Superman, though. I think the weirdness just caught me off guard the first time. Maybe if I go in knowing what to expect it will be different.

    On a side-note, why is it that all of our best conversations happen off-topic?
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  15. #45
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    Re: Ultimately cancelled?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    It's not as simple as "I like happy stories and dislike dark ones." The Death of Gwen Stacy is a dark story and one of my favourites. Also, Harry Osborn as the Goblin is my favourite Spidey villain BECAUSE of how messed up it is when he goes crazy and attacks the people he loves because he feels like he has to.
    I didn't mean to boil it down that simply or to suggest any kind of insult in your tastes so I hope that you didn't feel like you had to explain or defend yourself. I was generalizing, but it's true that the kind of things you like, generally and for the most part, are "happy" stories. I also didn't mean to suggest there was anything wrong with that whatsoever. Different strokes for different folks.

    To counter - those stories are definitely dark for the times they were written, no doubt, but compared to more current "dark" stories they are pretty tame. Still great stories and not reflective of what was going on in superhero books at the time, but pretty tame. I personally wouldn't put them in the same category, but I absolutely recognize what they meant at the time (particularly Gwen Stacy's death).

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    And I really liked it when Ultimate Fury had run-ins with Ultimate Peter Parker because the contrast of youthful idealism and hardened cynicism was really cool. The first issue of the Ultimates I ever read was the first annual where Fury hires the retired assassin to kill him just to see if he'll do it and then kills him for accepting the job. That put a bad taste in my mouth, but most of the rest of the series isn't that bad.
    That was a little gratuitous and I didn't think it really reflected what the themes in the regular series, so yeah I can see getting turned off by that. Dillon's art doesn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    In Watchmen, I just felt like it was so twisted. Nobody was worth rooting for. I actually couldn't finish it. The furthest I got was when Rorchach is remembering cutting dogs heads open or something. (He was taking a rorchach test).
    Yep - agreed it was twisted, but it WAS reflective of everything else going on in that universe at the time. If it had been gratuitous and unnecessary it would've bothered me too - not because it was gory - but that single scene did a LOT in explaining and expanding on the character of Rorschach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    And All-Star Superman is just weird. I really struggle to like anything Grant Morrison does. Some of it's good (like his Batman stuff), and some is decent (like hi X-Men stuff). But most of it is just so odd. I should go back and reread All-Star Superman, though. I think the weirdness just caught me off guard the first time. Maybe if I go in knowing what to expect it will be different.
    I thought the same thing at first, especially when he takes Lois to the Fortress of Solitude early on, but it is a fun kind of weirdness and makes sense in context with what happens in issue 1. He gets exposed to massive amounts of sun and triples his strength, intelligence, curiosity, etc. - it makes total sense that the book would have triple the weirdness of any other Superman book.

    (Coincidentally I was reading the first couple of issues the other day and Superman's demeanor really struck me. There's a scene in #2 where Lois zaps him with a Kryptonite gun and he says something to the effect of "Mind if I just take that?" - I don't know what it is but his kind personality is so vivid there and perfectly exemplifies why I like the book.)

    I hate to sound like I'm trying to convince someone to like something, but knowing what you like and don't like it surprises me that you don't love it; that's all I was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Canuck View Post
    On a side-note, why is it that all of our best conversations happen off-topic?
    It had meandered all over the place because we've broadened the topic so much but I think we're doing a pretty good job keeping on topic on this one, actually.
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